2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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Jolle
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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I don’t think the softness of the tires was at fault, it was more the increased pressure that really ballooned the tires when getting hot (on the Merc and others) that made them blister. Blistering has nothing to do much with softness. If they drop the pressure back to normal for Spain (that has less the load problem of Silverstone race one, we will have a normal race again.

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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:26 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:04 pm
basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:59 pm

Well read.
The discussion about the 2020 tires is rubbish, because this is not the problem.
Other than that useless trash (Liberty and Pirelli's secret intention that they whispered in your ears), do you have anything to the topic? Once again, learn to quote the posts please.
What is a secret? They openly announced softer tires to spice things up for the second race. They were even criticized for not doing this for Austria. So where is the secret?
They just do not have the balls to say "this was successful, we gave the teams an issue to solve...some did well, some didn't".

Which part do you think is quoted wrong?
They did not spice up. They messed up by not understanding if the tyres can withstand. You don't serve to the lower denominator in a competition. This is world class competition worth billions. They messed up by not managing to develop the tyres that they had to for 2020. A Failure is not SPICING UP. Reacting to it and increasing the pressures for the next GP in the middle of the week, is not SPICING UP. That's just plain mediocrity. They also wanted to have that brain dead decision of reverse grid, to help the under performers. That's not SPICING UP. It's just underhand play to hurt the team that does the best possible job in a world class competition. SPICING UP is fun when the team that has done the best job, doesn't get hurt because of having done the best possible job, but has full opportunity to win based on the material they have produced. Handicapping is not SPICING UP. It's not FIA, Liberty or Pirelli's job to create artificial competition by SPICING UP. The quality of the contenders SHOULD create SPICE. If such low class SPICING UP entertains a bunch of jokers who call themselves fan of the sport, then they need some psychiatric help. F1 is world class, elite, top of the league, highly technical and innovative Automobile Sporting Competition, not WWE.

Regarding quoted post, read hard! I know it is difficult for you, but try.

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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:26 pm
Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:44 pm
Pirelli is I think also playing their own game as it is not in their interest to have either blistering nor ripped sidewall/tread connection. I think that is why they slightly increased front tire pressure. Incase we do end up with a very long stint again (40 laps) that we do not have that issue again. The harder tires (as opposed to Silverstone 2, exact same as 2109 as per your previous post) and lower pressure should mean blistering is also much less here.
IMO Pirelli makes garbage tires, as I've said before I've removed them from cars i've owned as soon as I possibly could.

with regards to F1, their leadership is very poor and wishy washy. They could solve the vast majority of the negative press they have gotten since 2010 by exercising more control over how the tires are used. For example the FIA has said in the past if Pirelli mandated maximum stint length they would enforce them. No no that's far to simple and easy to do, instead they play guessing games with pressures and camber settings.


Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:44 pm
I just read on another forum Toto has send an e-mail reading "crush them". So it wouldn't be unlikely if they also open the PU a bit more. Could be interesting, will they succeed to crush or will RBR actually be able to creep closer.
I find this real hard to believe, as that's not his personality at all.
Just hearsay, 100%. Maybe I shouldn't have posted. I had Pirelli's Diablo Rosso 2 on my Aprilia Dorsoduro, they were fine in the dry but in the wet I did not trust them, or my ability perhaps better said. Typical nice weather rider.
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dans79
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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Jolle wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:42 pm
I don’t think the softness of the tires was at fault, it was more the increased pressure that really ballooned the tires when getting hot (on the Merc and others) that made them blister. Blistering has nothing to do much with softness. If they drop the pressure back to normal for Spain (that has less the load problem of Silverstone race one, we will have a normal race again.
I disagree here. Imo compound plays a part, it's not a major factor, but a contributing factor none the less. As the compounds go softer, the working range lowers. I don't have any proprietary knowledge of the compounds, but I'm willing to bet the ranges are driven by material differences between the compounds. The different materials will undoubtedly have different thermal properties and thus energy will move through them at different rates. Thus different compounds will be more or less susceptible to blistering.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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Not necessarily true. True for this year but there have been Pirelli tyres where the softs had higher working ranges than the Mediums. It is all about the compounds used.
There was a comment by Mercdes during the race that the blistering would still happen on the hard, and it did! So.. of course compounds are not as linearly related ingredient wise or thermal profile wise as one would think.

ispano6
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:55 am
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:21 am
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:18 am
Once this one race wonder is over, not have to wait long, then it's time to eat words. I have heard this chest thumping from fans of other teams when they get to win a race in unusual circumstance to Mercedes in the last 6.5 years. The discussion will be back to how high rake is dead and how much Honda is lagging behind.
FYI. Tyres are back to C1, C2, C3 for Barcelona and with normal pressures of 23Psi dront and 20.5 Psi rear. Let's see how much Newey and Tanabe has learnt.
Funny, is the Earth going to cool back down to normal temperatures this weekend? Was the first Silverstone race not normal temperatures or PSI? Mercedes was blowing hard compound tires in the first Silverstone race, under normal conditions. Both Mercedes suffered identical failures due to identical characteristics of the car, which seems to be all about controlling the tire temperatures and the energy put into them but not being able to sufficiently cool them when ambient temperatures are high. Red Bull Honda aren't standing still either, and to beat Mercedes they obviously aren't normal, they are exceptional. And don't worry, I trust what Tanabe says and I know he's going to apply the learnings from Silverstone to Barcelona as they will run more correlation and parts testing like they did last weekend. They already have data from Barcelona so this is effectively their second go at it and if they eradicate the sensitivity to wind completely they can take the fight to Mercedes in hot conditions.
Oh I bet you, the earth is going to cool down so much, it's going to freeze some people this weekend!

Your question if temperatures or PSI was not normal shows how informed you have been. Pirelli on Wednesday announced that they are going INCREASE the tyre pressures from 25 PSI front to 27 PSI front and similarly for rear, which is not NORMAL and is F1 history's highest tyre pressures. Normal is something that is set for the first time, which is what teams use to run their simulations. Once set, when it is changed, it's not NORMAL.

Obviously Red Bull Honda aren't standing still, just like Red Bull Renault didn't. Red Bull has been there fighting for 6.5 years now and losing. Picking up scraps in weekends that doesn't go well for Mercedes. Tanabe or Honda, it doesn't matter. They have been here running in V6 hybrid for 6th year running and still down on power compared to Mercedes. They aren't going to churn some magic in 5 days, which they haven't done in last 6 years.
"Normal" PSIs caused tire wall failures. ADJUSTED PSIs prevented tire wall failures but instead increased blistering and in turn reduced confidence and speed of both Mercedes drivers. HAMILTON WAS LIFTING WHERE MAX WAS NOT.

Just goes to show "normal" to you is when everything suits Mercedes. Clearly, you don't understand that Mercedes has a problem with overheating tires. Or that PSIs can be adjusted within a range, and that all teams are given the same tires with same PSI restrictions so I don't even know why we need to even be talking about "normal" PSIs that are clearly subjective.

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GPR-A
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:21 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:55 am
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:21 am


Funny, is the Earth going to cool back down to normal temperatures this weekend? Was the first Silverstone race not normal temperatures or PSI? Mercedes was blowing hard compound tires in the first Silverstone race, under normal conditions. Both Mercedes suffered identical failures due to identical characteristics of the car, which seems to be all about controlling the tire temperatures and the energy put into them but not being able to sufficiently cool them when ambient temperatures are high. Red Bull Honda aren't standing still either, and to beat Mercedes they obviously aren't normal, they are exceptional. And don't worry, I trust what Tanabe says and I know he's going to apply the learnings from Silverstone to Barcelona as they will run more correlation and parts testing like they did last weekend. They already have data from Barcelona so this is effectively their second go at it and if they eradicate the sensitivity to wind completely they can take the fight to Mercedes in hot conditions.
Oh I bet you, the earth is going to cool down so much, it's going to freeze some people this weekend!

Your question if temperatures or PSI was not normal shows how informed you have been. Pirelli on Wednesday announced that they are going INCREASE the tyre pressures from 25 PSI front to 27 PSI front and similarly for rear, which is not NORMAL and is F1 history's highest tyre pressures. Normal is something that is set for the first time, which is what teams use to run their simulations. Once set, when it is changed, it's not NORMAL.

Obviously Red Bull Honda aren't standing still, just like Red Bull Renault didn't. Red Bull has been there fighting for 6.5 years now and losing. Picking up scraps in weekends that doesn't go well for Mercedes. Tanabe or Honda, it doesn't matter. They have been here running in V6 hybrid for 6th year running and still down on power compared to Mercedes. They aren't going to churn some magic in 5 days, which they haven't done in last 6 years.
"Normal" PSIs caused tire wall failures. ADJUSTED PSIs prevented tire wall failures but instead increased blistering and in turn reduced confidence and speed of both Mercedes drivers. HAMILTON WAS LIFTING WHERE MAX WAS NOT.

Just goes to show "normal" to you is when everything suits Mercedes. Clearly, you don't understand that Mercedes has a problem with overheating tires. Or that PSIs can be adjusted within a range, and that all teams are given the same tires with same PSI restrictions so I don't even know why we need to even be talking about "normal" PSIs that are clearly subjective.
You either don't read or don't want to read. Isn't it? Stuck in this self deceit.

dans79
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:21 pm
Just goes to show "normal" to you is when everything suits Mercedes. Clearly, you don't understand that Mercedes has a problem with overheating tires. Or that PSIs can be adjusted within a range, and that all teams are given the same tires with same PSI restrictions so I don't even know why we need to even be talking about "normal" PSIs that are clearly subjective.
Don't start with the who is a bigger fan boy tit for tat garbage.
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ispano6
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:14 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:21 pm
Just goes to show "normal" to you is when everything suits Mercedes. Clearly, you don't understand that Mercedes has a problem with overheating tires. Or that PSIs can be adjusted within a range, and that all teams are given the same tires with same PSI restrictions so I don't even know why we need to even be talking about "normal" PSIs that are clearly subjective.
Don't start with the who is a bigger fan boy tit for tat garbage.
Tell that to the other guy.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:21 pm


"Normal" PSIs caused tire wall failures. ADJUSTED PSIs prevented tire wall failures but instead increased blistering and in turn reduced confidence and speed of both Mercedes drivers. HAMILTON WAS LIFTING WHERE MAX WAS NOT.
1. It wasn't just Mercedes that had tyre issues in Silverstone 1.
2. The tyre failures were due to mechanical damage to the tyres, not to how the car was using the tyres. The damage was likely caused by a combination of on-track debris and running off track at Chapel. All cars were doing it at some point.
3. Horner confirmed that they pitted right at the end partly because they feared a failure. Max's tyres were heavily cut.

So your opening statement there is incorrect. The Mercedes rear tyre problem in Silverstone 2 was partly caused by the team overreacting to the front failures in Silverstone 1 and overloading the rears instead. Rears that had been given sub-optimally high tyre pressures on a car that works the rear tyres hard because it makes lots of downforce. This was a mistake. They have admitted to this.
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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Pirelli has since confirmed Max’ Silverstone 1 pre last stint set was fine, he would have made it to the finish easily.
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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Quite some d***measuring in this thread, is that just as well because of the current temperatures in EU?
Sunshine is just a choice ...

basti313
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:42 pm
basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:26 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:04 pm
Other than that useless trash (Liberty and Pirelli's secret intention that they whispered in your ears), do you have anything to the topic? Once again, learn to quote the posts please.
What is a secret? They openly announced softer tires to spice things up for the second race. They were even criticized for not doing this for Austria. So where is the secret?
They just do not have the balls to say "this was successful, we gave the teams an issue to solve...some did well, some didn't".

Which part do you think is quoted wrong?
They did not spice up. They messed up by not understanding if the tyres can withstand. You don't serve to the lower denominator in a competition. This is world class competition worth billions. They messed up by not managing to develop the tyres that they had to for 2020. A Failure is not SPICING UP. Reacting to it and increasing the pressures for the next GP in the middle of the week, is not SPICING UP. That's just plain mediocrity. They also wanted to have that brain dead decision of reverse grid, to help the under performers. That's not SPICING UP. It's just underhand play to hurt the team that does the best possible job in a world class competition. SPICING UP is fun when the team that has done the best job, doesn't get hurt because of having done the best possible job, but has full opportunity to win based on the material they have produced. Handicapping is not SPICING UP. It's not FIA, Liberty or Pirelli's job to create artificial competition by SPICING UP. The quality of the contenders SHOULD create SPICE. If such low class SPICING UP entertains a bunch of jokers who call themselves fan of the sport, then they need some psychiatric help. F1 is world class, elite, top of the league, highly technical and innovative Automobile Sporting Competition, not WWE.

Regarding quoted post, read hard! I know it is difficult for you, but try.
This is nonsense. No one knows if the 2020 tire would have been better.

Regarding spicing up: No one has the right to call for hard tire compounds and tire changes that only favor them. Tires, pressures, compounds have always changed. Now that Merc does not like softer tires this is "artificial"??? There was a clear target to have 2 stop races, now still teams are running successful one stoppers...of course the tires should be softer.

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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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basti313 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:56 am
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:42 pm
basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:26 pm

What is a secret? They openly announced softer tires to spice things up for the second race. They were even criticized for not doing this for Austria. So where is the secret?
They just do not have the balls to say "this was successful, we gave the teams an issue to solve...some did well, some didn't".

Which part do you think is quoted wrong?
They did not spice up. They messed up by not understanding if the tyres can withstand. You don't serve to the lower denominator in a competition. This is world class competition worth billions. They messed up by not managing to develop the tyres that they had to for 2020. A Failure is not SPICING UP. Reacting to it and increasing the pressures for the next GP in the middle of the week, is not SPICING UP. That's just plain mediocrity. They also wanted to have that brain dead decision of reverse grid, to help the under performers. That's not SPICING UP. It's just underhand play to hurt the team that does the best possible job in a world class competition. SPICING UP is fun when the team that has done the best job, doesn't get hurt because of having done the best possible job, but has full opportunity to win based on the material they have produced. Handicapping is not SPICING UP. It's not FIA, Liberty or Pirelli's job to create artificial competition by SPICING UP. The quality of the contenders SHOULD create SPICE. If such low class SPICING UP entertains a bunch of jokers who call themselves fan of the sport, then they need some psychiatric help. F1 is world class, elite, top of the league, highly technical and innovative Automobile Sporting Competition, not WWE.

Regarding quoted post, read hard! I know it is difficult for you, but try.
This is nonsense. No one knows if the 2020 tire would have been better.

Regarding spicing up: No one has the right to call for hard tire compounds and tire changes that only favor them. Tires, pressures, compounds have always changed. Now that Merc does not like softer tires this is "artificial"??? There was a clear target to have 2 stop races, now still teams are running successful one stoppers...of course the tires should be softer.
This is modern day engineering where everything is possible to project. If Pirelli couldn't get it right to produce better tyres for 2020, then it's a failure on their part. 2020 Tyres were tested and rejected by teams, unanimously.

The problem is not about harder or softer tyres and it's not about Merc liking it or not. Everyone wants 2 stoppers. The problem is making tyres that blow up when pushed beyond performance life, instead of losing performance. The problem is, tyres that blister because Pirelli wants to save their skin with failing tyres and induces pressures that were unheard of in any racing, definitely never in F1 racing. Get that fact right.

Pirelli failed to meet the needs of the fastest car by regulations. They don't know how to handle the situation and because that fastest car is taking the tyres to it's limits, the tyres are blowing. That is not spicing up. Blowing tyres and 27 PSI pressures are the mirror image of mediocrity, which Pirelli is. Fast degrading, soft tyres are welcome, not the tyres that are blowing up after the performance life is exceeded. FIA, LIberty or teams didn't ask for tyres to blow up after the performance is done from the tyres. Neither did FIA, Liberty or teams asked for 27 PSI pressures. Pirelli trying save their own skin, is mediocrity.

Did you get where you went wrong with quoting my post?

basti313
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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GPR-A wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:27 am
basti313 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:56 am
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:42 pm
They did not spice up. They messed up by not understanding if the tyres can withstand. You don't serve to the lower denominator in a competition. This is world class competition worth billions. They messed up by not managing to develop the tyres that they had to for 2020. A Failure is not SPICING UP. Reacting to it and increasing the pressures for the next GP in the middle of the week, is not SPICING UP. That's just plain mediocrity. They also wanted to have that brain dead decision of reverse grid, to help the under performers. That's not SPICING UP. It's just underhand play to hurt the team that does the best possible job in a world class competition. SPICING UP is fun when the team that has done the best job, doesn't get hurt because of having done the best possible job, but has full opportunity to win based on the material they have produced. Handicapping is not SPICING UP. It's not FIA, Liberty or Pirelli's job to create artificial competition by SPICING UP. The quality of the contenders SHOULD create SPICE. If such low class SPICING UP entertains a bunch of jokers who call themselves fan of the sport, then they need some psychiatric help. F1 is world class, elite, top of the league, highly technical and innovative Automobile Sporting Competition, not WWE.

Regarding quoted post, read hard! I know it is difficult for you, but try.
This is nonsense. No one knows if the 2020 tire would have been better.

Regarding spicing up: No one has the right to call for hard tire compounds and tire changes that only favor them. Tires, pressures, compounds have always changed. Now that Merc does not like softer tires this is "artificial"??? There was a clear target to have 2 stop races, now still teams are running successful one stoppers...of course the tires should be softer.
This is modern day engineering where everything is possible to project. If Pirelli couldn't get it right to produce better tyres for 2020, then it's a failure on their part. 2020 Tyres were tested and rejected by teams, unanimously.

The problem is not about harder or softer tyres and it's not about Merc liking it or not. Everyone wants 2 stoppers. The problem is making tyres that blow up when pushed beyond performance life, instead of losing performance. The problem is, tyres that blister because Pirelli wants to save their skin with failing tyres and induces pressures that were unheard of in any racing, definitely never in F1 racing. Get that fact right.

Pirelli failed to meet the needs of the fastest car by regulations. They don't know how to handle the situation and because that fastest car is taking the tyres to it's limits, the tyres are blowing. That is not spicing up. Blowing tyres and 27 PSI pressures are the mirror image of mediocrity, which Pirelli is. Fast degrading, soft tyres are welcome, not the tyres that are blowing up after the performance life is exceeded. FIA, LIberty or teams didn't ask for tyres to blow up after the performance is done from the tyres. Neither did FIA, Liberty or teams asked for 27 PSI pressures. Pirelli trying save their own skin, is mediocrity.
I think a general Pirelli discussion is a bit off topic...but ok, I will try to stick close to Silverstone:
- That the 2020 tires were rejected had pure political reasons. If you make tires with thicker, more enduring sidewalls they get slower...that caused critics from the drivers. That you need to invest into development if the tires are changed got the critics from small teams...in the end it is more politics than projecting.
- That the tires failed was mostly due to parts on the track. That was down to drivers not keeping the cars on the track or in one piece and down to poor track cleaning. Putting blame to Pirelli because they in the end raised the pressure to make the issues more unlikely is not going into the right direction. One can now go into a general discussion again about the shitty rubber and thin sidewalls/threads. There are reasons for it, but I do not think this is the right place for opening this discussion again.
- The fastest car by the rules was the RedBull and the tires were fine on this car. The third fastest was the RacingPoint without big issues. Then the Ferrari could even go with a one stop....I do not see how "fast" correlates with the Mercedes issues. They simply got the setup wrong.
- That you have slight blistering in these hot conditions is normal in my point of view. One can fight the issue because one team does not like it...of course...