2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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They believe that the setup whilst being more prone to sliding (which Lewis managed) didn't put as much stress via downforce into the tyres so they stayed cooler (also helped by driving down the straight with DRS lap after lap) so he had better tyre life whilst still being able to follow the cars in front of him ... i think that's the idea...

What's really interesting though is that the Mercedes (at least driven by Lewis) isn't absolutely terrible in traffic anymore.

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ringo
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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Hamilton is rarely terrible in traffic. He is doing something in the car that he is keeping secret. He seems to be very manacing as Brundle puts it. I feel he simply has the best feel for the tyres. This allows him to be very good on braking and acceleration and that's where he is saving the tyres. When he saves the tyres he has more rubber to attack. He also chooses when to attack, he doesnt stick on to the gearbox the whole lap.
So i wouldnt say the wing was the advantage. Maybe another driver with this wing would have been slow in the corners and overheat the tyres.
For Sure!!

Dejaeger22
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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Everytime Hamilton is behind another car he changes his lines. He basically turns in much earlier into the corner than the car in front. At first I didn't understand why he was doing it, because if you have early apex, you compromise your exit. But I realised that by turning in early he avoids the dirty air of the car in front, because the dirty air also drifts wide when cornering. He comprises his exit slightly, but he doesn't loose so much time in the corner itself. Overall there is a net gain en he keeps his tires in shape.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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Dejaeger22 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 7:14 am
Everytime Hamilton is behind another car he changes his lines. He basically turns in much earlier into the corner than the car in front. At first I didn't understand why he was doing it, because if you have early apex, you compromise your exit. But I realised that by turning in early he avoids the dirty air of the car in front, because the dirty air also drifts wide when cornering. He comprises his exit slightly, but he doesn't loose so much time in the corner itself. Overall there is a net gain en he keeps his tires in shape.
Potentially, going for a more geometric line will probably see less stress on the rear tyres as well which is where you would see bigger drop offs in terms of lap time.
Felipe Baby!

Dejaeger22
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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True, but he only drives this way behind another car. In a 90 degree corner it does not have so much of a effect. In Portugal, the last sector are all +90 degree corners. So the effect is larger.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:22 pm
They believe that the setup whilst being more prone to sliding (which Lewis managed) didn't put as much stress via downforce into the tyres so they stayed cooler (also helped by driving down the straight with DRS lap after lap) so he had better tyre life whilst still being able to follow the cars in front of him ... i think that's the idea...

What's really interesting though is that the Mercedes (at least driven by Lewis) isn't absolutely terrible in traffic anymore.
For allthe years of watching F1 it has always been that more downforce for a given track and given apex speed means cooler tyres. They tye doesn't need as much slip angle to grip the road so less hsyteresis, less deformation, less heating. This was also evident in the years Mercedes were dominating the sport. They had much better tyre life than the other teams... Because they had so much more downforce they could take it easy through the corners. They had a weakness at hot tracks because they couldn't heat the full casing of the tyre enough because they had spoiled themselves with gentle set ups! They fixed the problem of course with the new wheels.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:08 pm
RZS10 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:22 pm
They believe that the setup whilst being more prone to sliding (which Lewis managed) didn't put as much stress via downforce into the tyres so they stayed cooler (also helped by driving down the straight with DRS lap after lap) so he had better tyre life whilst still being able to follow the cars in front of him ... i think that's the idea...

What's really interesting though is that the Mercedes (at least driven by Lewis) isn't absolutely terrible in traffic anymore.
For allthe years of watching F1 it has always been that more downforce for a given track and given apex speed means cooler tyres. They tye doesn't need as much slip angle to grip the road so less hsyteresis, less deformation, less heating. This was also evident in the years Mercedes were dominating the sport. They had much better tyre life than the other teams... Because they had so much more downforce they could take it easy through the corners. They had a weakness at hot tracks because they couldn't heat the full casing of the tyre enough because they had spoiled themselves with gentle set ups! They fixed the problem of course with the new wheels.
Surely, if a car has higher downforce, it just goes through the corner at a higher speed - the higher speed been that at which the tyre at the same slip angle as it would be at a lower speed. The more downforce you have, the more grip, so the faster you go around a corner. The limit is still defined by the tyres.
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Hammerfist
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:22 pm
They believe that the setup whilst being more prone to sliding (which Lewis managed) didn't put as much stress via downforce into the tyres so they stayed cooler (also helped by driving down the straight with DRS lap after lap) so he had better tyre life whilst still being able to follow the cars in front of him ... i think that's the idea...

What's really interesting though is that the Mercedes (at least driven by Lewis) isn't absolutely terrible in traffic anymore.
Very strange analysis imo. If you slide more, you overheat the tire, you wear the tire out more and you go slower. There will be some benefits to run the lower downforce, but I don't think this is it. I'm guessing he wanted the good straight line speed, perhaps anticipating he would have to try and pass a redbull or his teammate, which he did.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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More sensitve throttle control is my take on it. Or if not that it could be that his driving styles is more gentler on the corner exit, the place where rear tyres take a beating?

Bottas is not super aggressive, i think he has a simimar style to Lewis, maybe, except he is not as sensitive to the tyres.
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 4:01 am
More sensitve throttle control is my take on it. Or if not that it could be that his driving styles is more gentler on the corner exit, the place where rear tyres take a beating?
I've seen a few things repeated about Lewis over the years that might explain why he makes tires last longer.

1) he is very good at getting the car straight before putting the power down.
2) he's very smooth with how he applies the brake and gas pedal.
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drunkf1fan
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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dans79 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 4:09 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 4:01 am
More sensitve throttle control is my take on it. Or if not that it could be that his driving styles is more gentler on the corner exit, the place where rear tyres take a beating?
I've seen a few things repeated about Lewis over the years that might explain why he makes tires last longer.

1) he is very good at getting the car straight before putting the power down.
2) he's very smooth with how he applies the brake and gas pedal.
He and Verstappen have both pretty much said exactly what they do, Hamilton after this weekend and Verstappen a while back, maybe after that Austrian race.

The biggest thing is changing corners you push to reduce temp, that is, the best way to run a lap in speed per lap isn't the best way to save tires. There are corners you can push, gain 0.2 seconds and heat up your tires badly and corners you can maybe push and gain 0.1 seconds but not raise temps as much. Ham said along the lines of you pick which corners to push but I really shouldn't say more. Verstappen said similarly after I think it was Austria (where Ricciardo pit again from behind him before his car failed and Verstappen won from an early one stop), that it's about pushing where you gain the most and backing off in the corners that really heat the tires. Combing a general which corner is best if one tire overheats a bit knowing that backing off a little more in certain corners will reduce that tire temp and they can push another corner a bit harder for a couple laps to not lost time and balance the temp in the tires.

The really shocking thing to me is how poorly Bottas has been able to do with all of Ham's data and frankly following Hamilton from behind in so many races that he can't go, wait I gain in corner 3/6/9 a bunch but my tires wear out earlier. There must be info in the data that shows he's pushing more in certain corners and that it's hurting him. This also pretty easily fits into the way Ham drives. Earlier in stints Bottas is pushing and is closer to Ham but towards the end of stints Bottas's tires go off and Ham often pulls out an extra 6-10 seconds in only 3-4 laps before Bottas is forced to pit. Part of that is actually that Ham just wants to warm his tires more slowly and let a little fuel burn off before pushing I would think but part is just that he's holding back for the better performance over the stint.

Ham and Verstappen are just godlike in feeling where they can push and gain time with minimal tire hit and where they gain the most tire life by taking it easy.


On the whole "Merc is trash in traffic" myth, well I let the cat out of the bag, it's always been a myth.

Every single season you get a few tracks that you can't follow and pass even if a little faster but that was as true this year, two years ago as 2013, or 2009, or 2002. Some tracks you just struggle to get close enough. But in all these Merc hybrid years there are 10-15 tracks a year that if Hamilton is in traffic he goes through that traffic like butter while Rosberg or Bottas struggled at the same tracks. Bottas struggling to make passes in multiple tracks while Hamilton doesn't have trouble is in no way down to the Merc being bad in traffic and that has never been the case.

A couple years you might simply get the only times Ham is behind is a track with horrible overtaking and then combine that with multiple tracks Bottas is behind and he struggles and people go hey the Merc struggles in bad air.

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Phil
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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drunkf1fan wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 5:24 am
The really shocking thing to me is how poorly Bottas has been able to do with all of Ham's data and frankly following Hamilton from behind in so many races that he can't go, wait I gain in corner 3/6/9 a bunch but my tires wear out earlier. There must be info in the data that shows he's pushing more in certain corners and that it's hurting him.
I’m not sure, but i get a feeling that Hamilton plays things more closely to his chest where such things would be revealed, i.e. FP1 and FP2. Perhaps one of the lessons he learned when he had Rosberg in the team. Or Bottas has the data, but just cant feel it as well as Hamilton.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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Phil wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 7:37 am
Or Bottas has the data, but just cant feel it as well as Hamilton.
It seems that some drivers just have it and some don't. Here's what de la Rosa and others have said about it. Interesting to see Alonso mentioned as having this talent too:
As McLaren’s test driver from 2007-9, De la Rosa witnessed Hamilton’s abilities closer than most. Having worked with both, he rates Hamilton and Alonso as the two best drivers he has ever seen first hand - including Schumacher.

Where they differentiate themselves from the rest, he says, is in the entry phase of a corner.

“Where they are special, Lewis and Fernando, is how much speed they can run into the apex and still have a decent exit speed,” he says. “It is very easy to say; it is very difficult to do.

“Most drivers, over one lap, when the rear tyres are at their peak grip, can do that. So if you look at [Hamilton’s current Mercedes team-mate Valtteri] Bottas, for example, over one lap many times he is matching Lewis.

“The problem comes when the rear tyres drop off. That’s when they are so much better than the rest. They still keep the speed going in.”
Lowe says an ability to control his car in this way not only “makes you go faster in the moment, but also allows you to set the car up to be nearer the limit, so it is inherently quicker”.

These skills also explain why Hamilton is often so much more effective in races than Bottas, when it comes to key techniques such as following another car closely, overtaking or keeping tyres in optimum condition.

“Some drivers cannot get that close to the car in front,” De la Rosa says. "But Lewis and Fernando, always, when they’re behind they’re nearly touching the gearbox.

“You can see they are following in a different manner, in an aggressive manner, in a way that is not comfortable at all for the car in front.

“You lose a lot of grip when you are following - especially with these modern F1 cars - but this type of driver knows how to compensate by balancing with speed and brakes.

“It doesn’t really matter if the car is understeering or oversteering, they will sort the balance out with their feeling. They don’t know why they are doing it. They just know it’s faster. And that’s all talent - pure, raw talent.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/extra/c1nx5 ... FyyFG2iSx2

Please note this is included here for reference, not me fanning for Hamilton. These are quotes from people on the inside with first hand experience.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

MKlaus
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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at the drop of a hat, threads here derail into that exact one topic. no marks for guessing!

anyone have a good weather prediction for this weekend?

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, Apr 30 - May 02

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MKlaus wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 10:32 am
at the drop of a hat, threads here derail into that exact one topic. no marks for guessing!

anyone have a good weather prediction for this weekend?
I think you need this thread for discussions about this weekend's race / weather. :wink:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"