Hungarian GP 2008

[andartop]

to belatti:

so, you consider Montoya's carrer in F1 succesful??? I had high hopes as well, but apart from a few nice overtakings I think it was one of the biggest disappointing appearances ever in F1, especially near the end... i will always remember him as the Lawnmower Man!!! no offence to Montoya fans, but I think everyone expected much more of him.

Obviously oval racing needs skills and technical expertise as well, but no matter what to most Europeans i think it will always seem a bit boring and pointless compared to F1, even if the first place changes hands 267 times during a 584 lap race... I cant' help feeling it's a bit tedious going round and round until someone crashes in the banking, or until someone is forced to crash in the banking...

[Miguel]

Alonso's in lap 2nd pitstop 1:24.326
out lap 1:47.032

Kimi's in lap 2nd pitstop 1:23.551 = - 0.775 sec
out lap 1:43.921 = - 3.111 sec

I have changed my mind about Alonso's outlap. It isn't the best outlap ever (why should it be?), but Kimi's one is brutal. I've reviewed the inlaps and outlaps of the other drivers and theres one 44.8 and a couple of high 45's but, when combined with kimi's inlap, I'd dare say that no one (and that includes Massa, Kovalainien, Hamilton, Kimi's other stop and the Toyotas) was within 3 seconds of that inlap outlap combination. I would have made the exact computation, but I am too lazy. For a comparison, Alonso's second stop is similar to Kovalainens's second one. Why was Kimi's transponder precisely the broken one?

[timbo]

It was said that Renault would investigate Kimi's stop. Well, I wonder maybe he could save some fuel running slower than he could, so they didn't need to add as much?

[Miguel]

I don't know, Timbo. According to the replays, Kimi stayed for like 5.8 seconds and Alonso was stopped for almost 7 seconds.

WARNING: Tinfoil Theory Ahead!!!
One thing that makes me think is that, as we have no data on kimi's second stop, he could have gone clean with speeding on the pitlane. As far as I know, penalties are given by people going (time at pit exit - time at pit entry)/pitlane-length > 80 km/h.

My conspiracy theory tells me that when the transponder doesn't work, you don't get a pitlane speeding penalty. Luca Baldiserri knows this, and told kimi to engage the pit limiter slightly later and, above all, to engage it slightly earlier. This is coupled by the fastest car on track and by a flawless pitstop, gaining the 4 seconds needed by kimi.

OK, if you made it this far, please accept my apology. I have to make a C++ bot break when it is on a bumpy road and understand camber on a track. I am an almost newbie in the C++ world, so that explains why I'm going mad. And, of course, the "deadline" ends up in two hours. (it's for a game)

[Belatti]

to belatti:

so, you consider Montoya's carrer in F1 succesful???

He was not Fangio or Senna, but he did better than Zanardi (previous CART champ with Ganassi) Andretti, Da Matta, and probably Bourdais. He did a better job than Ralph in 2002, was a title contester in 2003 season unlike his teammate and scored more than the double of WC points in 2004. OK, he had a bad 2005 with a new team built arround Kimi, the motorcycle/tennis stuff and a couple of bad luck races.

In general he performed better or equal to his teammates

Panis was faster than Da Matta, Andretti was SLOOOOOW and Zanardi hardly scored points. Vettel is faster than Bourdais now.

In comparison, he was succesful.

[DaveKillens]

Don't forget Montoya won Monaco too...............

[nae]

depends how you measure success

Montoya's bank manager will probably think he was pretty successful

however it seems that going to F1 from America isn't the way to go
or not being European, i dont quiet understand how a 5 times champ car
winner cant hustle an F1 car round in circles as well as a champ car


* by champ i mean whatever they call the series this week

[timbo]

Anyone remember Magnussen's story? He had record in F3 surpassing Senna's. Then he went to the DTM for a year, next year he was given seat at McLaren and failed to perform. I've read that the opinion was that the year he spent in DTM was bad to his ability to control open-wheeler. F1 cars are sharper than anything else, seems like once you loose that skill it is hard to learn back.
Notice that MS obviously doesn't perform in stock cars as good as in open-wheelers.
Well ChampCars are open-wheelers but comparing with F1 they are more like DTM...

[andartop]

to belatti:

so, you consider Montoya's carrer in F1 succesful???

{...apologising for still discussing montoya in hugary gp thread...}

he also spun on formation laps, crashed behind safety cars, pretty much spent equal time (overexaggerating!) in the track and on the grass!!! i mean, sure, he outperformed team mates, but based only on that would you say fisico was the best driver of all times ( up until he moved to renault, having arguably not just overperformed but really humiliated any previous team mate of his)? all i say is i was a big fan of montoya in his first few seasons (though ferrari fan), but he did so many mistakes later on that i would never consider him a succesful f1 driver on the whole. i think we ought to be a bit more strict with a guy who comes in f1 straight into one of the best teams around (lewis anyone?), while others spend years and years in lesser cars and might not even get a chance in their whole carrers in a car able to win...

as far as zanardi is concerned, i m not sure if it's a true story, but the myth has it that he organised wheel chair racing while still in the hospital after that horrible accident... for that alone he will always be for me one of those great men... and if that wasn't enough, i think he is still winning races... when was the last time montoya won without crashing the guy in front out of the race?!!!

[nae]

still derailing the Hungary` thread

its very much a case of choose your heap to be top off

most of the young team that brake into F1 have won everything
they have ever tried, if not at there first attempt soon after.
(that is to say if you dont win a race in f1 in the first few years
you are never going to cut it , button!?)

what does annoy is that they never seem to get the top 20 (22) drivers
in the world racing in f1 at the same time, saying that this year isn't
bad with a 3 way fight (perhaps even a 5 way if the cars where totally even)


Zanardi shows the true racing dogmatic style after his horrendous crash
and to be racing again within 2 years is simply amazing

[scarbs]

IIRC Zanardi did a pretty good job on his first stint in F1 (lotus) depsite a huge crash at Spa. His return from Champcar with Williams was humiliating, is this clear proof that the US single seaters upset a drivers 'driving'. Montoya & Villeneuve were exceptions, but they did join a team which was at its peak and neither had exactly stratospheric team mates. Their susbsequent races in lesser cars may be higlights that fact.

I'd love to know why the cross over is so hard, are F1 cars that difficult or is it the rest of the pantomime that surrounds F1, that some drivers(i.e. magnussen) struggle with. I am guessing its psychological, not a lack of natural ability to drive the car.

[Belatti]

Anyone remember Magnussen's story? He had record in F3 surpassing Senna's. Then he went to the DTM for a year, next year he was given seat at McLaren and failed to perform. I've read that the opinion was that the year he spent in DTM was bad to his ability to control open-wheeler. F1 cars are sharper than anything else, seems like once you loose that skill it is hard to learn back.
Notice that MS obviously doesn't perform in stock cars as good as in open-wheelers.
Well ChampCars are open-wheelers but comparing with F1 they are more like DTM...

Yeah, Magnussen also failed at Stewarts first year. In 1998 season he was way down Barrichello till Jos replaced him. Your comment about MS, stock cars and open wheelers make me wonder about Fangio and his preferences for the open wheeled version of the Mercedes W196.

In 1993, Alex Zanardi shared Lotus Ford with Johnny Herbert. Herbert scored 11 points, with three 4th places and a 5th.
Alex scored only a 6th, he had bad luck but he was not a great driver before moving to US and still managed to win there

[andartop]

i think a good driver would still be quite good no matter what he drove, but then it's a huge step from just being good to being a champ. thus rossi was fast on a wrc but i think crashed every time, schumi was fast on a moto gp test but would probably finish around 10th on race, loeb was good in le mans and sainz was very good in paris-dakar but still did not win, etc...
but it takes a really exceptional driver or rarely seen favourable circumstances (ie much better car or much less capable competition) to be a winner everywhere, and that kind of talent is hard to find. tazio nuvolari for example..

[Miguel]

i think a good driver would still be quite good no matter what he drove, but then it's a huge step from just being good to being a champ. thus rossi was fast on a wrc but i think crashed every time, schumi was fast on a moto gp test but would probably finish around 10th on race, loeb was good in le mans and sainz was very good in paris-dakar but still did not win, etc...
but it takes a really exceptional driver or rarely seen favourable circumstances (ie much better car or much less capable competition) to be a winner everywhere, and that kind of talent is hard to find. tazio nuvolari for example..

OT: I'd say inexperience cost Carlos Sainz in his first participation, while reliability has been an issu in his later participations. This guy is quick.

[timbo]

Your comment about MS, stock cars and open wheelers make me wonder about Fangio and his preferences for the open wheeled version of the Mercedes W196.

That's interesting, but I think time difference is way too big to compare. However, in his interview MS hinted that there is something about SEEING the wheels that makes it easier for him to drive open-wheelers. Maybe that was Fangio's case too.