2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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Fulcrum
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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I'm not surprised at all. I have made comments to this effect during the Abu Dhabi test, specifically in relation to the wording of an article summarising the viewpoints of Paddy Lowe. Lots of glowing praise for Robert in every respect - with the notable exception of pure pace.

"How fast is Robert capable of driving?" became the elephant in the room for me, because no-one was talking about it. In ordinary circumstances, raw speed would be the be all and end all of many articles. With Robert, there are obviously other factors of interest worth addressing, but the notable silence with respect to speed led me to believe he had less chance than was being implied from the degree of media coverage.

The longer this drags on, the more it favours Sirotkin. The only reason I can fathom they'd delay any news in Kubica's favour is if there were financial implications with respect to his insurance policies.

I know there is a lot of sentiment within the forum and wider community for Robert, but if Sirotkin is simply faster (with significantly less testing time I might add), and brings more money, then the decision is an absolute no-brainer.

I get the impression a lot of us cannot accept Sirotkin may indeed be faster, which is understandable considering the circumstances.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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So Robert is bring up to half what SS is bringing, so its like Robert racing for free and Sirotkin bring 7.5mill. The thing is, all through GP2 Sirotkin was never great, he never came close to winning a championship, when you look back Palmer won that title, and in recent years Sirotkin has been outshone by Rossi, Vandoorne and only beat Haryanto over a season by 1 point! Haryanto even won more races than Sirotkin in that year. Giovinazzi and Gasly smashed him last year and Marciello matched him. He's an Average-Good racer at best.

He doesnt deserve an F1 drive, Palmer deserved it way more and he was crap. If you took the money away from all the drivers, Sirotkin wouldnt even be mentioned
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Manoah2u
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:02 pm
If you took the money away from all the drivers, Sirotkin wouldnt even be mentioned
well, if it wasn't for money, Bottas wouldn't be at Mercedes as the deciding factor as said Toto was Wihuri.
That doesn't actually mean that if it wouldn't have been Bottas that it would have been Wehrlein, btw.
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Nickel
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:02 pm
So Robert is bring up to half what SS is bringing, so its like Robert racing for free and Sirotkin bring 7.5mill. The thing is, all through GP2 Sirotkin was never great, he never came close to winning a championship, when you look back Palmer won that title, and in recent years Sirotkin has been outshone by Rossi, Vandoorne and only beat Haryanto over a season by 1 point! Haryanto even won more races than Sirotkin in that year. Giovinazzi and Gasly smashed him last year and Marciello matched him. He's an Average-Good racer at best.

He doesnt deserve an F1 drive, Palmer deserved it way more and he was crap. If you took the money away from all the drivers, Sirotkin wouldnt even be mentioned
And what's being suggested, in case you missed it, is that the"nothing" driver you say is only considered for the money, happened to be faster than Robert. If this is true, the choice would seem self evident.

Myself, I'll wait for official confirmation before getting too worked up either way.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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So what way will "work you up" when the decision is made
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Raleigh
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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Palmer took 4 years to win a GP2 title and his best position before that was 7th. Haryanto, mentioned as finishing 1 point behind Sirotkin in 2015, had 4 years in GP2 with results of 14th, 19th, 15th and 4th.

Sirotkin came in with a fairly impressive 3rd on his rookie season and then somewhat choked on his title challenge the next year and could only repeat 3rd place. The guy has potential, again I'd be happy with him as the rookie driver, it's just the combination of Stroll and Sirotkin which is a problem.

Squid
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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Yeah, in-season development looks bleak if Williams doesn't have a single experienced driver to provide feedback.

Maybe Kubica could be hired as a development driver?

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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Raleigh wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:32 pm
Palmer took 4 years to win a GP2 title and his best position before that was 7th. Haryanto, mentioned as finishing 1 point behind Sirotkin in 2015, had 4 years in GP2 with results of 14th, 19th, 15th and 4th.

Sirotkin came in with a fairly impressive 3rd on his rookie season and then somewhat choked on his title challenge the next year and could only repeat 3rd place. The guy has potential, again I'd be happy with him as the rookie driver, it's just the combination of Stroll and Sirotkin which is a problem.
Yeah, so as Stroll is there they cant take a rookie or "choker" as you called him
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RonDennis
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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Squid wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:44 pm
Yeah, in-season development looks bleak if Williams doesn't have a single experienced driver to provide feedback.

Maybe Kubica could be hired as a development driver?
Yeah, because Sirotkin can't tell if the car is feeling better. :lol:

Stop hyping Kubica, he couldn't even beat Heidfeld and he's even worse now. Slower than Hulkenberg, slower, than Sirotkin, slower than Palmer, slower than Massa, slower than Kvyat and slower than Stroll. Do you need more facts? If Williams has any ambitions it should sign Wehrlein, he's the only real talent.

Squid
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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RonDennis wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:09 am
Squid wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:44 pm
Yeah, in-season development looks bleak if Williams doesn't have a single experienced driver to provide feedback.

Maybe Kubica could be hired as a development driver?
Yeah, because Sirotkin can't tell if the car is feeling better. :lol:
You're right, I forgot Warmer-Colder is an effective car development method.

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FrukostScones
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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Raleigh wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:32 pm
Palmer took 4 years to win a GP2 title and his best position before that was 7th. Haryanto, mentioned as finishing 1 point behind Sirotkin in 2015, had 4 years in GP2 with results of 14th, 19th, 15th and 4th.

Sirotkin came in with a fairly impressive 3rd on his rookie season and then somewhat choked on his title challenge the next year and could only repeat 3rd place. The guy has potential, again I'd be happy with him as the rookie driver, it's just the combination of Stroll and Sirotkin which is a problem.
never understood this "Rookie Problem". Either you are good or Bad. See HAM VES and many more ...
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

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Vasconia
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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RonDennis wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:09 am
Squid wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:44 pm
Yeah, in-season development looks bleak if Williams doesn't have a single experienced driver to provide feedback.

Maybe Kubica could be hired as a development driver?
Yeah, because Sirotkin can't tell if the car is feeling better. :lol:

Stop hyping Kubica, he couldn't even beat Heidfeld and he's even worse now. Slower than Hulkenberg, slower, than Sirotkin, slower than Palmer, slower than Massa, slower than Kvyat and slower than Stroll. Do you need more facts? If Williams has any ambitions it should sign Wehrlein, he's the only real talent.
how do you know that he is slower tan Massa, Stroll or Kvyat.

I said it before, Kubika would improve exponentially with more running, pure speed needs more time when you have been out so much time. His long runs were consistent and good, which mean he can drivers. Taking into acount how much he can work I have(almost) no doubt that he would reach a quite good level. If you add that his feedbacks are very important for the team to improve the car, hiring him was a good move. I am not saying he could be as good as he was before that I am sure he would collect more points and more consistently than Stroll.

Fulcrum
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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I wonder if Williams are simply trying to secure even more money from both Sirotkin/Kubica by playing them against each other? I.e. Robert, you have 7.5 to Sirotkin's 15; if you can just get to 12 the seat is yours. Sergey, 5 more and the seat is yours.

netoperek
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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RonDennis wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:09 am
Squid wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:44 pm
Yeah, in-season development looks bleak if Williams doesn't have a single experienced driver to provide feedback.

Maybe Kubica could be hired as a development driver?
Yeah, because Sirotkin can't tell if the car is feeling better. :lol:

Stop hyping Kubica, he couldn't even beat Heidfeld and he's even worse now. Slower than Hulkenberg, slower, than Sirotkin, slower than Palmer, slower than Massa, slower than Kvyat and slower than Stroll. Do you need more facts? If Williams has any ambitions it should sign Wehrlein, he's the only real talent.
None of what You said are actually facts.
Yes, Sirotkin can't provide feedback as good as Kubica. In Abu-dhabi Sirotkin stepped up the pace on setup proposed by Kubica on tuesday evening, as Robert has not been satisfied with a setup he had to drive with (he was not allowed to change it for himself). Long run times analysis by Mark Hughes suggested Robert had a better pace than Massa, first time in a car, on tires new to him, without a chance to trim the setup. He blew up his 2 low fuel runs o hypersofts (one with traffic, second time scrappy lap - no purples, resulting in only a bit FASTER lap than Strolls Qually), hence now there is no proof of how quick he can actually be right now on official time sheets.
In Hungary Robert had a duel with Sirotkin in 2012 Renault in Valencia earlier this year and iirc he was 0.4s faster, fact even confirmed by SS.
As for Palmer, in hungary testing, where Kubica recorded 0! low fuel runs (confirmed by Renault) he was 4th on timesheets, 0.1s off Palmers best qually time.
I have no knowledge of Kubica and Kvyat ever driving against each other, so its hard to compare them.
BMW has been terrible on Kubica's part of garage, but when he had a car with all wheels in place/not type-mixed/ with proper pressure, with enough fuel, working engine etc, he usually was a bit faster than Heidfeld, who was a very decent driver himself. Still, in 2008 Kubica has even been a championship leader for some time in that BMW (!). Likes of Hamilton, Rosberg and Alonso considered him as as good or better than them. In his last F1 showing before the crash, he topped the chart in preseason tests with Renault. I guess that's where Kubica hype came from, You know.
As Vasconia said, Robert would most likely only improve with mileage and be a valuable asset as a development driver, as for example Mercedes learned when Kubica was in their simulator while they were preparing a 2014 contender iirc.

DK20
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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Guys, noone can deny, that a man absent from the sport for ages, and with partially disability in one of his hand, cant compete with the current, totally healthy drivers. This is physics!