2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

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Mr Brooksy
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Mr Brooksy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:46 am

bill shoe wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:16 pm
Like everyone else who's a Williams fan, I've been busy having no fun this season. But I think the performance situation is not as dire as mid-season results suggest.

If you figure the realistic pace difference between the Williams drivers (~ slowest in field) vs. the Force India drivers (a really good driver pair at the top of their games) then I think that alone explains most of the pace difference.

The remaining difference is down to now-understood aero problems, and once you identify the problem and the cause then you are well on your way to fixing those.

So I don't see any need for Williams to panic, ditch their in-house transmission capability, and become a component-assembler team. They are positioned reasonably well technically for the next 2-3 years.

Financially is different story. If slow-ish pay drivers in basically quick cars help Williams survive as a genuine constructor for the next couple years then so be it.
Great post! Totally agree. Williams is enduring another very badly designed car, unfortunately it's produced a few of these over the past decade. Many more than any other full constructor, but at the same time, we have produced a car not long ago that was one of the only cars capable of racing the totally dominant Mercedes in 14 and 15 at a handful of tracks.

To throw away the gearbox Dept because we designed a bad Aero car makes very little sense from a technical standpoint. Yes it's still a titanium cased box, but that shouldn't be impossible to engineer when they are ready to. Don't forget that this Dept was responsible for the ultra small box that other teams simply couldn't do a few years back.

Financially there is an argument for the short term, but I think that's all the argument has in its favour.

Will Williams jump to the front of the grid next year with or without a Mercedes gearbox? No. Will using the Merc box save Williams millions? I'm not so sure, as I doubt the Williams gearbox is all that different from 14. Can Williams sink money into a new gearbox design? Probably not, but the gearbox is not their biggest concern is it?

Let's focus on what we need to fix, and then build from there. We have had the Stroll cash injection for upgraded facilities (obviously we aren't at Mercedes level) which will help, but I think we need to keep looking for better staff, not buying tech from others.

I can not see why we can't go back to fighting at the front of the midfield next year if we completely understand what we did terribly wrong this year.

Well apart from running average pay drivers of cause. We need some experience!
WilliamsF1 fan since 1989

Zynerji
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Zynerji » Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:42 am

Must be terrible watching Haas taking all those points, and knowing that STR will be taking even more next year.

Time to do the same model with Merc before they die.

Im sure that there are other places that the gearbox department could be used to make money for Williams (OEM gearboxes like Getrag or Allison) or other racing series' parts.

Making money with staff through contacting and saving money by buying matched components allows more available for aero development.

When Williams folds, and unemploys hundreds, I wonder how many will think kindly of Claire's "feelings"...

bill shoe
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by bill shoe » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:06 am

Yes, Williams needs to continue the culture change. It's very important that Paddy Lowe continue to have authority to clean house as he sees necessary. Buying a Merc gearbox doesn't make that happen.

I take the rejection of Merc transmissions to be a sign that they have the necessary budget for next season.

And I take a double points finish, including the first point for Sirotkin, to be a good thing. If you grumble about the Monza results then you're thinking too hard by half.

Big Tea
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Big Tea » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:42 am

bill shoe wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:06 am
Yes, Williams needs to continue the culture change. It's very important that Paddy Lowe continue to have authority to clean house as he sees necessary. Buying a Merc gearbox doesn't make that happen.

I take the rejection of Merc transmissions to be a sign that they have the necessary budget for next season.

And I take a double points finish, including the first point for Sirotkin, to be a good thing. If you grumble about the Monza results then you're thinking too hard by half.
I agree it good to see points, but, looking at it honestly... Grosjeans, Alonso, Ricciardo. Hulh from the back, FI screw up in Q1, does not look quite as good if you factor there in.

But, as you say, points are points, and there is a feelgood* factor that will help them through.

*(I mistyped that to foolgood, someone telling me something :D )
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Singabule
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Singabule » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:11 am

Zynerji wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:42 am
Must be terrible watching Haas taking all those points, and knowing that STR will be taking even more next year.

Time to do the same model with Merc before they die.

Im sure that there are other places that the gearbox department could be used to make money for Williams (OEM gearboxes like Getrag or Allison) or other racing series' parts.

Making money with staff through contacting and saving money by buying matched components allows more available for aero development.

When Williams folds, and unemploys hundreds, I wonder how many will think kindly of Claire's "feelings"...
This is the most difficult part of decision makers as she know her staff personally. As the team owner and manager at the same time, its not all about efficiency. Wiliams is different than STR because even though they create their own gearbox, the internal coming from RBT. In williams case, supply of gearbox mean she need to laid off hundreds of current employee and she must rethink of the compensation also.

Zynerji
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Zynerji » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:34 pm

Singabule wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:11 am
Zynerji wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:42 am
Must be terrible watching Haas taking all those points, and knowing that STR will be taking even more next year.

Time to do the same model with Merc before they die.

Im sure that there are other places that the gearbox department could be used to make money for Williams (OEM gearboxes like Getrag or Allison) or other racing series' parts.

Making money with staff through contacting and saving money by buying matched components allows more available for aero development.

When Williams folds, and unemploys hundreds, I wonder how many will think kindly of Claire's "feelings"...
This is the most difficult part of decision makers as she know her staff personally. As the team owner and manager at the same time, its not all about efficiency. Wiliams is different than STR because even though they create their own gearbox, the internal coming from RBT. In williams case, supply of gearbox mean she need to laid off hundreds of current employee and she must rethink of the compensation also.
No, she needs to find other work for them. Like OEM, other race gearboxes, or prototyping/ consulting. (I'd start with Boston Dynamics.)

Good teams generate more money than they cost their emloyer. I'm sure that the enormous talent that they have could be retained and work on other products or services.

When it comes to this kind of re-envisioning, this is my expertise. They have tons of talent, but they are not well synergized.

Big Tea
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Big Tea » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:41 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:34 pm
Singabule wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:11 am
Zynerji wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:42 am
Must be terrible watching Haas taking all those points, and knowing that STR will be taking even more next year.

Time to do the same model with Merc before they die.

Im sure that there are other places that the gearbox department could be used to make money for Williams (OEM gearboxes like Getrag or Allison) or other racing series' parts.

Making money with staff through contacting and saving money by buying matched components allows more available for aero development.

When Williams folds, and unemploys hundreds, I wonder how many will think kindly of Claire's "feelings"...
This is the most difficult part of decision makers as she know her staff personally. As the team owner and manager at the same time, its not all about efficiency. Wiliams is different than STR because even though they create their own gearbox, the internal coming from RBT. In williams case, supply of gearbox mean she need to laid off hundreds of current employee and she must rethink of the compensation also.
No, she needs to find other work for them. Like OEM, other race gearboxes, or prototyping/ consulting. (I'd start with Boston Dynamics.)

Good teams generate more money than they cost their emloyer. I'm sure that the enormous talent that they have could be retained and work on other products or services.

When it comes to this kind of re-envisioning, this is my expertise. They have tons of talent, but they are not well synergized.
They have their fingers in many pies, so there is scope to move and retain.

https://www.williamsf1.com/advanced-engineering
Can I make a 3D printer on my 3D printer?

Zynerji
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Zynerji » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:05 pm

Exactly! Go Merc B, take maximum synergy, move redundancy to the Advanced Engineering department.

I don't understand why this is even a question at this point, other than gearboxes being Patrick Head's baby...

djos
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by djos » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:54 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:41 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:34 pm
Singabule wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:11 am


This is the most difficult part of decision makers as she know her staff personally. As the team owner and manager at the same time, its not all about efficiency. Wiliams is different than STR because even though they create their own gearbox, the internal coming from RBT. In williams case, supply of gearbox mean she need to laid off hundreds of current employee and she must rethink of the compensation also.
No, she needs to find other work for them. Like OEM, other race gearboxes, or prototyping/ consulting. (I'd start with Boston Dynamics.)

Good teams generate more money than they cost their emloyer. I'm sure that the enormous talent that they have could be retained and work on other products or services.

When it comes to this kind of re-envisioning, this is my expertise. They have tons of talent, but they are not well synergized.
They have their fingers in many pies, so there is scope to move and retain.

https://www.williamsf1.com/advanced-engineering
They helped create this amazing Singer restoration:

https://www.wired.com/story/singer-pors ... -williams/
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

djos
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by djos » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:55 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:05 pm
Exactly! Go Merc B, take maximum synergy, move redundancy to the Advanced Engineering department.

I don't understand why this is even a question at this point, other than gearboxes being Patrick Head's baby...
Patrick hasn't been at Williams for many many years. He's off enjoying retirement.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Zynerji
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Zynerji » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:02 am

djos wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:55 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:05 pm
Exactly! Go Merc B, take maximum synergy, move redundancy to the Advanced Engineering department.

I don't understand why this is even a question at this point, other than gearboxes being Patrick Head's baby...
Patrick hasn't been at Williams for many many years. He's off enjoying retirement.
Doesn't mean that it still isn't his baby.

I deal quite a bit with "retired" owners. Fixing the business that they left as a mess is how I feed my children, and overcoming their desire to hold their old company back is often the most difficult part of my contract... #-o

djos
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by djos » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:43 am

Sounds challenging!

Didn't Patrick sell his shares when he retired?
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Zynerji
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by Zynerji » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:21 am

djos wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:43 am
Sounds challenging!

Didn't Patrick sell his shares when he retired?
Dunno, but I recall the gearbox, and B team being his loudest objections in the past.

skwdenyer
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by skwdenyer » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:13 pm

Patrick’s shares were part of the share offering I believe.

bill shoe
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Re: 2018 Williams F1 Racing - Mercedes

Post by bill shoe » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:06 am

Joe Saward's take on Williams and what they should do going into the off-season.

The team has a wonderful history - but it is just that. It has a Mercedes engine and is at the back of the F1 grid. Things must change and taking on pay-drivers is not the right answer. That is a slippery slope. The reverse the situation you need a good car and great drivers. To have a good car you need money, but as Haas has proved, you can buy in a lot of performance if you don't encumber yourself with the belief that you should be a constructor. Right now, Williams needs to buy in as much Mercedes technology as possible, and rebuild. Once that has been achieved then the team can go back to building its own transmissions and so on, but in the interim I see no choice other than a closer alliance with Mercedes. And if that involves taking on two good young Mercedes drivers then so it must be. You cannot complain if you are getting Ocon and George Russell and a bunch of technology. This has got to be a better option than Sirotkins and Markelovs.
https://www.motorsportweek.com/joesaward/id/00304

I think Saward would be right if the goal was to maximize performance and economics for the 2019 season only. If the goal is to maximize performance and economics over the next 6-8 years then the answer becomes more difficult...