2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Datco
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Datco » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:14 pm

fellowhoodlums wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:39 am
Spec 2 update was minimal performance improvement out the box but it did improve the power unit reliability/robustness so it could take those higher modes for longer. It was certainly interesting to see how long long they let it run at this high mode.

But remember the hard tyres just worked incredibly that weekend. Superior grip than Ferrari or Mercedes so they got through the corners much faster to close that gap and then overtake.
It's difficult to conclude it was superior grip. Ferrari pitted early due to starting on softs, Bottas also for some reason pitted early, maybe to put Ferrari under pressure. This put them on a longer stint on the hards.
Lewis reported tires were good after Ferrari's pitted and put in the fasted lap but then had damage to the car on the Kerbs. After that we not know how the damage affected his pace on the hards. It would have been good if Gasly had the upgrades or pace to match Max to draw some proper conclusions.

digitalrurouni
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by digitalrurouni » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:15 pm

fellowhoodlums wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:39 am
Spec 2 update was minimal performance improvement out the box but it did improve the power unit reliability/robustness so it could take those higher modes for longer. It was certainly interesting to see how long long they let it run at this high mode.

But remember the hard tyres just worked incredibly that weekend. Superior grip than Ferrari or Mercedes so they got through the corners much faster to close that gap and then overtake.
I am pretty sure at least with regards to Red Bull v Mercedes at the Ring it was not the tire grip but rather the fact that the Mercs were overheating like crazy and lifting and coasting for 400 m at a time during the race that just made it way easier for Red Bull to to outperform them.

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:43 pm

The RB15 has improved, as it has every race this season, only now the step it made allowed it to close the gap. Yes Austria is a very special track, triple DRS, heat, tire management, and good driving all played a part, but those aspects have been part of this team the whole season.

If I had to guess what happens in Silverstone, Mercedes will go back to destroying everyone due to the nature of the circuit. However the Red Bull will be closer to Mercedes than it was in Paul Ricard because now it is a match for them in all corner types. I suppose this is the plan materializing itself, with 5 engines which can be ran harder than the others who are only using 3, there will be some races where they'll have an advantage in race conditions. It is a dangerous game because whether they like it or not it accelerates the possibility of an engine failure, and DNF's net 0 points. Regardless they may not start dominating just yet but they will be closer from here on in.

Ferrari will also be closer to Mercedes, the gap will be slightly smaller than in China. There are 3 places where Mercedes will have a clear advantage, and I feel it will be just enough to beat Ferrari's straight line advantage.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

ME4ME
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ME4ME » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:17 pm

Marko on Gasly:
https://f1i.com/news/347240-marko-no-cr ... liver.html
"He was always looking for issues with the car, in the chassis. We have looked through this. There was nothing.

"The plan now is to support him as much as possible. He gets Max's set-up from the start, because he's the more experienced driver and has the more experienced engineering team.

"He can mess around with it, but he can't seriously move away from it - he was experimenting with his set-up before and jumping from one extreme to the other."
Sounds like they try to settle Gasly and control his panic. Just copy what works on the other car. If i recall correctly Daniel Ricciardo admitted to have gone through the same, over-tuning his Red Bull at the start of 2018 resulting in his Australian GP qualifying crash, rather than just drive around the problem which Verstappen did on that occation.

Having Gasly on an nearly identical setup to Verstappen also makes it easier for the team to compare them.

Anyway, coming back to the Hulkenberg rumour and some reporting that a replacement could even be on the cards for mid-season, I was thinking why would Renault do that, and who would they replace Hulkenberg with?
Quick search on Ocon on F1i.com:
Image

I guess if Renault is serious about reviewing Hulkenbergs position at the team, or wanting a French driver in the seat next year than Ocon would be the obvious choice. Obviously depending on Mercedes and what they want to do with Bottas. Red Bull did do Renault a favor two years ago when they released Sainz early, so Renault might repay the favor, also keeping in mind that they would get a head start integrating Ocon into the team.

restless
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by restless » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:04 pm

I can see RB going for Ocon... but why Hulk?

Sieper
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Sieper » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:11 pm

If they go for Ocon and Max would be winning, say a race in Austria. Would Ocon then be allowed to unlap himself...

seense
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by seense » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:02 pm

restless wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:04 pm
I can see RB going for Ocon... but why Hulk?
Exactly the opposite. Why Hulk? He's not that far behind RIC. Seems a perfect 2nd driver if you ask me, just like RIC a bit behind compared to Max and scoring the needed points to challenge for WCC.

For Hulk it's a chance on podium finishes. I would be amazed if they hire an Ocon. Too much of an alpha male, so no second driver for him and he's not as talented as Max.

ispano6
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ispano6 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:20 pm

Fuel upgrade perhaps?
David Tsurusaki:
"Home track for the team, not that far from the site here. It's a fantastic venue for the team to shine and we can show some of the other teams what we have."

GhostF1
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by GhostF1 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:00 pm

ME4ME wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:17 pm
Marko on Gasly:
https://f1i.com/news/347240-marko-no-cr ... liver.html
"He was always looking for issues with the car, in the chassis. We have looked through this. There was nothing.

"The plan now is to support him as much as possible. He gets Max's set-up from the start, because he's the more experienced driver and has the more experienced engineering team.

"He can mess around with it, but he can't seriously move away from it - he was experimenting with his set-up before and jumping from one extreme to the other."
Sounds like they try to settle Gasly and control his panic. Just copy what works on the other car. If i recall correctly Daniel Ricciardo admitted to have gone through the same, over-tuning his Red Bull at the start of 2018 resulting in his Australian GP qualifying crash, rather than just drive around the problem which Verstappen did on that occation.

Having Gasly on an nearly identical setup to Verstappen also makes it easier for the team to compare them.

Anyway, coming back to the Hulkenberg rumour and some reporting that a replacement could even be on the cards for mid-season, I was thinking why would Renault do that, and who would they replace Hulkenberg with?
Quick search on Ocon on F1i.com:
https://ibb.co/2NM4Nj2

I guess if Renault is serious about reviewing Hulkenbergs position at the team, or wanting a French driver in the seat next year than Ocon would be the obvious choice. Obviously depending on Mercedes and what they want to do with Bottas. Red Bull did do Renault a favor two years ago when they released Sainz early, so Renault might repay the favor, also keeping in mind that they would get a head start integrating Ocon into the team.
I read that as Marko implying Gasly is completely lost and is happier blaming the car for his issues instead of looking at himself. Also saying the part about Gasly wildly changing the setup, extreme to extreme makes it look like he doesn't provide very good feedback so they are nailing him down with a setup they know will be effective for Max.

Either way it looks a little bit more like alarm bells.

NL_Fer
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by NL_Fer » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:13 pm

Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:11 pm
If they go for Ocon and Max would be winning, say a race in Austria. Would Ocon then be allowed to unlap himself...
Ofcourse, remember the wise words: “Ocon had less to lose”

bill shoe
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Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by bill shoe » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:35 pm

GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:00 pm
I read that as Marko implying Gasly is completely lost and is happier blaming the car for his issues instead of looking at himself. Also saying the part about Gasly wildly changing the setup, extreme to extreme makes it look like he doesn't provide very good feedback so they are nailing him down with a setup they know will be effective for Max.
You could also read it as Marko making excuses for why they lost the only driver who could roughly keep up with Max (Riccardo out-quailed Max 1/3 of the time in 2018). Easier for Marko to pick apart Gasly's driving than to pick apart RB's inability to keep a pair of top-level drivers like Mercedes.

Sieper
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Sieper » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:30 pm

bill shoe wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:35 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:00 pm
I read that as Marko implying Gasly is completely lost and is happier blaming the car for his issues instead of looking at himself. Also saying the part about Gasly wildly changing the setup, extreme to extreme makes it look like he doesn't provide very good feedback so they are nailing him down with a setup they know will be effective for Max.
You could also read it as Marko making excuses for why they lost the only driver who could roughly keep up with Max (Riccardo out-quailed Max 1/3 of the time in 2018). Easier for Marko to pick apart Gasly's driving than to pick apart RB's inability to keep a pair of top-level drivers like Mercedes.
1/3 of the time you say. 5 qualy wins in 20 races. 1/4 that is. Well that is just grand. And If you drill into those 5 times Max was 2 times not even participating in Q3 and the Kimi after spin tow in Baku was a godsend to Ricci.

Red Bull

Final score: Max Verstappen 15-5 Daniel Ricciardo
Average gap: -0.145 for Verstappen

A surprise head-to-head score? Yes. A thoroughly impressive season from Verstappen? Absolutely.

Ricciardo consistently had no match for Verstappen on a Saturday, although the Australian did notch Red Bull's only two pole positions of the year.

langedweil
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Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:51 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by langedweil » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:06 am

godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:43 pm
I suppose this is the plan materializing itself, with 5 engines which can be ran harder than the others who are only using 3, there will be some races where they'll have an advantage in race conditions.
I already was wondering aboout that pre-season .. why not just go for 2 or even 3 extra PU's so you can push alike Austria, and offer yourself a way bigger chance to win? The penalties you take at circuits where you can be quite sure to finish at least 5th & 6th (i.e. 10pnts). That is only 8 pnts less than no2, but gives you a new/extra engine .. possibly with even better performance because of ongoing development.

With the PU data they have, one should be able to setup a proper model for that.

As a knife that cuts both ways, your competition will score less points when you win or finish up higher. And if you can push for instance the Mercs more constantly, they have to either fall back (like Austria) to save their PU, or have to step up and possibly hurt/wear theirs. Would give Fer also a bigger chance, with a lot more spreaded points overall as a result .. and thus better changes to a WDC. Max is 'only' 70 points behind, with what appeared to be a dog of a car in the first 9 races (well not really, but compared to Merc en Fer); that is not insanely much .. especially in the case RB really could change the tide. But surely, that remains to be seen of course, and does not seem likely for now.

But hey, I'm no engineer .. just thinking out loud.
Last edited by langedweil on Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

bill shoe
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Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by bill shoe » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:13 am

Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:30 pm
bill shoe wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:35 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:00 pm
I read that as Marko implying Gasly is completely lost and is happier blaming the car for his issues instead of looking at himself. Also saying the part about Gasly wildly changing the setup, extreme to extreme makes it look like he doesn't provide very good feedback so they are nailing him down with a setup they know will be effective for Max.
You could also read it as Marko making excuses for why they lost the only driver who could roughly keep up with Max (Riccardo out-quailed Max 1/3 of the time in 2018). Easier for Marko to pick apart Gasly's driving than to pick apart RB's inability to keep a pair of top-level drivers like Mercedes.
1/3 of the time you say. 5 qualy wins in 20 races. 1/4 that is. Well that is just grand. And If you drill into those 5 times Max was 2 times not even participating in Q3 and the Kimi after spin tow in Baku was a godsend to Ricci.

Red Bull

Final score: Max Verstappen 15-5 Daniel Ricciardo
Average gap: -0.145 for Verstappen

A surprise head-to-head score? Yes. A thoroughly impressive season from Verstappen? Absolutely.

Ricciardo consistently had no match for Verstappen on a Saturday, although the Australian did notch Red Bull's only two pole positions of the year.
Ha! I checked and we're both off. The FIA thinks the 2018 season had 21 races with qualy results being Max 15-6 Daniel. Let's agree: Over the course of the season Max was quicker but Daniel was quick enough to keep him honest.

Back to the big-picture-- Merc had two superb drivers in Lewis and Rosberg, and still has a pair almost as good with Lewis and Botas. Ferrari admittedly has a bit of a #1 and #2 driver system, but they still fill seat #2 with top-shelf talent (Raikkonen, LeClerc) that belongs with one of the three winning teams on the grid. In contrast, RB has filled their #2 seat with Gasly, who's a weak and arguably silly choice for a seat in one of the three winning teams on the grid.

You and I could both easily rattle off several names on the grid who are better than Gasly, and hell we could also name 1 or 2 unemployed F1 drivers who are better. So why is RB unable or unwilling to put one of those better talents in their car?

langedweil
6
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:51 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by langedweil » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:14 am

langedweil wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:06 am
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:43 pm
I suppose this is the plan materializing itself, with 5 engines which can be ran harder than the others who are only using 3, there will be some races where they'll have an advantage in race conditions.
I already was wondering about that pre-season .. why not just go for 2 or even 3 extra PU's so you can push alike Austria, and offer yourself a way bigger chance to win? The penalties you take at circuits where you can be quite sure to finish at least 5th & 6th (i.e. 10pnts). That is only 8 pnts less than no2, but gives you a new/extra engine .. possibly with even better performance because of ongoing development.

With the PU data they have, one should be able to setup a proper model for that.

As a knife that cuts both ways, your competition will score less points when you win or finish up higher. And if you can push for instance the Mercs more constantly, they have to either fall back (like Austria) to save their PU, or have to step up and possibly hurt/wear theirs. Would give Fer also a bigger chance, with a lot more spreaded points overall as a result .. and thus better changes to a WDC. Max is 'only' 70 points behind, with what appeared to be a dog of a car in the first 9 races (well not really, but compared to Merc en Fer); that is not insanely much .. especially in the case RB really could change the tide. But surely, that remains to be seen of course, and does not seem likely for now.

But hey, I'm no engineer .. just thinking out loud.