[ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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LM10
LM10
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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izzy wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 19:21
LM10 wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 16:21
In 2017 Ferrari definitely had not caught up with the power yet. Mercedes destroyed Ferrari on the straights. Remember Spa 2017 for example. It's much harder to start in second row and drive behind the most powerful car rather than to start up front.
I agree that driving was a factor too, but the reason for Lewis to drive flawlessly also lies in Mercedes being such a rock-stable team (I'm not ignoring his general monster skills). He can totally trust his team and doesn't feel the need to overdrive in any means. Vettel, for example, told that he tried to overdrive multiple times last season and that it was a mistake.
As for Mercedes occasionally not being faster last season - they maybe weren't in qualifying, but they absolutely killed it in the races when it mattered.
i thought Ferrari more or less caught up on power by 2015, as soon as they went to a big turbo.
What? :lol: Definitely not, man. In 2014 they were 80 hp behind according to Binotto. They surely didn’t close this gap in one year. Mercedes has been the clear class of the field in regards to PU up until 2017 (included).

izzy
izzy
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Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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LM10 wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 19:32
izzy wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 19:21
i thought Ferrari more or less caught up on power by 2015, as soon as they went to a big turbo.
What? :lol: Definitely not, man. In 2014 they were 80 hp behind according to Binotto. They surely didn’t close this gap in one year. Mercedes has been the clear class of the field in regards to PU up until 2017 (included).
oh yes babe :P :P
Prancing horsepower
Estimated race power difference between Mercedes and Ferrari - 2014: 50bhp; 2015: 0bhp. (total power output approx 880bhp)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/32520314
the whole 2014 thing was that only HPP realised how they could use an oversized turbo, and that was one huge single fix

edit scrabbling to be on topic and that was a perfect example of the Mercedes Team working better and thinking better, like we've just seen again
Last edited by izzy on 22 Feb 2020, 22:10, edited 1 time in total.

zibby43
zibby43
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Joined: 04 Mar 2017, 12:16

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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LM10 wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 10:40
zibby43 wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 07:14
Just_a_fan wrote:
21 Feb 2020, 14:19

That's some serious delta driving. That last stint is all, bar the odd lap, sat at around 20.3 with no sign of tyre deg or fuel burn off showing (unless one is matching the other almost perfectly). Makes one wonder what they could do if they were pushing.
I agree.

On a side note, remember when Ferrari let James Allison walk?

Before Allison's arrival, one of the Merc's most glaring weaknesses (and there weren't many) was its propensity to chew through its tires - particularly the rears. Now, Merc are the class of the field in terms of tire management in race trim.
Mercedes already was amazing in slow corner performance last season (and also before), but they seem to have still managed to make an even bigger jump this year. Juzh, the onboard-video provider of the forum, told that he has observed Mercedes already in testing having a significantly higher minimum corner speed in slow speed corners than in last year's Q3.
It's safe to say that James Allison is a big blessing for Mercedes. He's a suspension genius and it seems like that area still is one where you can gain big chunks of time in. Their "adventurous" suspension system at the rear and DAS at the front make it two innovations which in combination could already mean game over for this year.

RBR seems to be very upset about DAS and will desperately try to get it banned. They know they can't argue on a mechanical level as it is not against the rules so they try to do it by bringing the argument that it primarily has an aerodynamic benefit rather than mechanical. They really want to make Max the youngest champions in history. They worked so hard to improve their car and have been fairly optimistic the last weeks.

On another note, I think Ferrari should eye the situation closely and if their car turns out to be significantly behind, they should just be honest to themselves, be clever, let Mercedes and RBR fight and turn their focus on 2021. :)
I knew Mercedes was looking pretty handy (visually) in the slow corners thus far, and the S3 times were ahead of what RB was doing, but did not know about the significantly higher corner entry speeds. Thank you for sharing that. Interesting stuff indeed, as the slow corners are where you can make up the most time of all the corners.

As you pointed out, Merc have been slowly evolving to prioritize that slow corner performance. And agree on Allison. His personality just seems to fit well within the culture that Mercedes have established.

I think Mattia is trying to introduce a better culture at Ferrari, it's just going to take time. When he was the TD, Ferrari were innovating on the hardware-side (both with respect to the PU and the chassis), but the culture was not where it is today. I think there's been a bit of a trade-off with him switching roles. I have a lot of respect for Mattia.

LM10
LM10
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Joined: 07 Mar 2018, 00:07

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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izzy wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 19:39
LM10 wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 19:32
izzy wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 19:21
i thought Ferrari more or less caught up on power by 2015, as soon as they went to a big turbo.
What? :lol: Definitely not, man. In 2014 they were 80 hp behind according to Binotto. They surely didn’t close this gap in one year. Mercedes has been the clear class of the field in regards to PU up until 2017 (included).
oh yes babe :P :P
Prancing horsepower
Estimated race power difference between Mercedes and Ferrari - 2014: 50bhp; 2015: 0bhp. (total power output approx 880bhp)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/32520314
the whole 2014 thing was that only HPP realised how they could use an oversized turbo, and that was one huge single fix
Now, that's a shocking news actually. :) Would have never guessed it. Need to look for more articles, but thank you for sharing!

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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LM10 wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 19:32
izzy wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 19:21
LM10 wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 16:21
In 2017 Ferrari definitely had not caught up with the power yet. Mercedes destroyed Ferrari on the straights. Remember Spa 2017 for example. It's much harder to start in second row and drive behind the most powerful car rather than to start up front.
I agree that driving was a factor too, but the reason for Lewis to drive flawlessly also lies in Mercedes being such a rock-stable team (I'm not ignoring his general monster skills). He can totally trust his team and doesn't feel the need to overdrive in any means. Vettel, for example, told that he tried to overdrive multiple times last season and that it was a mistake.
As for Mercedes occasionally not being faster last season - they maybe weren't in qualifying, but they absolutely killed it in the races when it mattered.
i thought Ferrari more or less caught up on power by 2015, as soon as they went to a big turbo.
What? :lol: Definitely not, man. In 2014 they were 80 hp behind according to Binotto. They surely didn’t close this gap in one year. Mercedes has been the clear class of the field in regards to PU up until 2017 (included).
I have them thereabouts on peak power in 2015 as well at least at hot tracks like Malaysia. In 2016 Mercedes stretched their legs again. Ferrari caught up by 2017. In 2018 the two were about on par with Ferrari the edge in peak power. In 2019 Ferrari lead them again. All my armchair estimates of coursd.
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astracrazy
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Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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LM10 wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 16:27
Mercedes used DAS in the pits as well. PG tech suggests that it's to put temperature into the tyres. That would be a nice to have of course, as cold tyres after a pit stop are an issue. But wasn't this system supposed to cool the tyres rather than warming them?

Another visible thing is that he presses a button when pulling and pushing the steering wheel without "MARKER" appearing on the screen. So this answers the question wether a button needs to be pressed or not. The steering wheel needs to be unlocked by pressing it, it seems.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1230927901832466432
I still think its the marker button, if the 2020 wheel is the same as the 2019 wheel that is.

Image

izzy
izzy
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Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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astracrazy wrote:
24 Feb 2020, 00:26
I still think its the marker button, if the 2020 wheel is the same as the 2019 wheel that is.
he might press the Mark button but whatever it's obviously latched, either near or away, you couldn't have it floating around could you? It looks like a lever or button on the back of the wheel to me

and i wonder if they might've kept it secret a bit longer if they hadn't kept bringing up "MARKER" on the screen for everyone to see :D

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Ferrari 2019 had buttons under the rubber grips. You couldn't see the indentations unless you were really close. Mercedes might have similar buttons hidden under the grip,
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dans79
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Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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izzy wrote:
24 Feb 2020, 00:40
you couldn't have it floating around could you? It looks like a lever or button on the back of the wheel to me
It doesn't have to float, the team could have a simple system to apply preload to the shaft. All they need to know is the maximum acceleration they think it will undergo, and how much it weighs. Then its just F=M*A + S. S = safety margin.

All the driver needs to do then, is apply enough force to overcome the preload. No locking mechanism is required, and it's pretty much idiot proof.
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bosyber
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Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 22:41

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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LM10 wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 16:27
Mercedes used DAS in the pits as well. PG tech suggests that it's to put temperature into the tyres. That would be a nice to have of course, as cold tyres after a pit stop are an issue. But wasn't this system supposed to cool the tyres rather than warming them?

Another visible thing is that he presses a button when pulling and pushing the steering wheel without "MARKER" appearing on the screen. So this answers the question wether a button needs to be pressed or not. The steering wheel needs to be unlocked by pressing it, it seems.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1230927901832466432
Nice find, makes sense about using it in the pits to heat tyres, recall that was often a weakness last year compared to Ferrari.
Cooling tyres/reduce drag - reduce toe out; for corners /heating tyres - increase toe out; that's part of the advantage, that this allows them to go to toe settings that are suboptimal/impossible to run for the others,and adjust when needed.

izzy
izzy
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Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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dans79 wrote:
24 Feb 2020, 03:38
izzy wrote:
24 Feb 2020, 00:40
you couldn't have it floating around could you? It looks like a lever or button on the back of the wheel to me
It doesn't have to float, the team could have a simple system to apply preload to the shaft. All they need to know is the maximum acceleration they think it will undergo, and how much it weighs. Then its just F=M*A + S. S = safety margin.

All the driver needs to do then, is apply enough force to overcome the preload. No locking mechanism is required, and it's pretty much idiot proof.
It could be good to have it continuously variable couldn't it, i wonder if there's a Version 2.0 in the works with more positions, but the arm weight is a killer for stiction as it's about 10 kg

KiLLu12258
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Joined: 19 Feb 2019, 14:55

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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bosyber wrote:
24 Feb 2020, 09:43
LM10 wrote:
22 Feb 2020, 16:27
Mercedes used DAS in the pits as well. PG tech suggests that it's to put temperature into the tyres. That would be a nice to have of course, as cold tyres after a pit stop are an issue. But wasn't this system supposed to cool the tyres rather than warming them?

Another visible thing is that he presses a button when pulling and pushing the steering wheel without "MARKER" appearing on the screen. So this answers the question wether a button needs to be pressed or not. The steering wheel needs to be unlocked by pressing it, it seems.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1230927901832466432
Nice find, makes sense about using it in the pits to heat tyres, recall that was often a weakness last year compared to Ferrari.
Cooling tyres/reduce drag - reduce toe out; for corners /heating tyres - increase toe out; that's part of the advantage, that this allows them to go to toe settings that are suboptimal/impossible to run for the others,and adjust when needed.
but how much of a difference would that make with that low speed in the pit?

bosyber
bosyber
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Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 22:41

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Well, more than not doing it, I guess, if you have it, why not ; f1 is about small differences adding up, right?

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Mark4211
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Location: Singapore

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Annotated Wheel Adjustments: DAS Usage & Pit Stop, Valtteri Bottas - Testing 2020

izzy
izzy
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Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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The car can lap all day in the 1:19s apparently:
Image
https://twitter.com/f1debrief