[ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
NAPI10
NAPI10
37
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

LM10 wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:54 pm
Godius wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:13 pm
https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/1231927725113430016

This seems promising. I reckon that Ferrari will be ahead in Melbourne but RP leading the midfield firmly seems plausible.
Of course they will lead the midfield with the W10. Racing Point copied it to it's smallest details. Nothing impressive about that job in this regard and a shame the engineers didn't get the opportunity to build a car with their own ideas.
There is nothing shameful about it. Team understand its limitation and don’t want to indulge in wild goose chase; I call it smart. In order to survive in F1, it’s critical for small teams to set smart goals n stick to it.
RP have clear set of goals for 2020 – Lead mid-field battle & score few podiums. This design approach will help them achieve; it’s simple as that.

User avatar
McG
4
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:45 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Ringleheim wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:25 am
Diesel wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:00 am
If this perhaps works too well, it could cause an even bigger stir. Imagine if they start getting 3rd & 4th at every race behind Mercedes. Ferrari & Red Bull are going to kick up an absolute stink.

Also, if Perez starts out performing Stroll, I can see him getting the boot mid-season. Can't have someone taking podiums away from dearest son.
I'm a big Ferrari fan and would like to see them winning races this year. Having said that, if Ferrari have made as bad a car as it seems, I will absolutely be rooting for Racing Point and their fake pink Mercedes to be on podiums, not just "do somewhat well".

It would create a stir! I think that would be great and create some interest as a fan.

Watching Lewis beat Bottas in the only 2 cars capable of winning a race, most of the time, is really not very interesting.

Not really understaning this deep love over an almost exact copy of a Merc. Just... Wtf.

Rather than being a copy, I would be 99% sure that this RP car is basically a pink Mercedes with minimal work put in by RP other than some Canadian dollars going Mercs way. Or Merc now part own RP. Next year it will be yet another Aston with a Merc engine which is very fitting.
Honda, the power of giving up.

Ringleheim
Ringleheim
18
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:02 am

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

I don't think Mercedes would give Racing Point all of the CAD data to make the whole car. It sounds like the've sold them bits and pieces, but I assume most of this is a copying job coming from analyzing photographs.

I wouldn't call it deep love for Racing Point, but it is always interesting to see lesser teams do well, no matter how they do it! I remember back when young Vettel drove his balls off in the rain at Monza in a Torro Rosso in qualifying and then won the race. I always cheer for Ferrari first and foremost, but I was puling for Vettel in that race. I remember cheering wildly for Olivier Panis at Monaco in 1996 too.

It's not that hard to figure out. Unusual results are interesting and better than the boring status quo.

User avatar
McG
4
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:45 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Ringleheim wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:16 pm
I don't think Mercedes would give Racing Point all of the CAD data to make the whole car. It sounds like the've sold them bits and pieces, but I assume most of this is a copying job coming from analyzing photographs.

I wouldn't call it deep love for Racing Point, but it is always interesting to see lesser teams do well, no matter how they do it! I remember back when young Vettel drove his balls off in the rain at Monza in a Torro Rosso in qualifying and then won the race. I always cheer for Ferrari first and foremost, but I was puling for Vettel in that race. I remember cheering wildly for Olivier Panis at Monaco in 1996 too.

It's not that hard to figure out. Unusual results are interesting and better than the boring status quo.
Actually this isn't accepted universally. Amongst some other countries, it's a very British thing. Support the plucky underdog and all that.

In this case I don't think RP deserve it (anymore). None of the B teams do.
Honda, the power of giving up.

User avatar
izzy
70
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

The rear wing endplates are RP ones aren't they, not the W10 ones. So i'm thinking RP have modelled the W10, using all the known coordinates they've had from having its PU and suspension, and now they're developing from it. They've learned all its flow structures and basically how it achieved its downforce, and now they're progressing from that base.

So i won't be surprised if new sidepods and engine cover appear, maybe even on Wednesday, to match the new 2020 power units and radiators underneath. After all they're using the Mercedes wind tunnel, and they have aeros who have to be doing aero and it won't all be on 2021 yet.

It's a very clever way for Lawrence, who probably didn't get to be a billionaire by being dumb, to give his aeros an instant masterclass, that THEN they can apply on the 2021 car :idea: Let's see :)

LM10
LM10
130
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

From Autobild.de:

"Allegedly Renault is preparing a protest against Racing Point. Background: It is not allowed to take aerodynamic parts from other teams. Renault believe that Racing Point has done exactly that."

PowerandtheGlory
PowerandtheGlory
24
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:52 am

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Comments elsewhere on this forum report people seeing 4 W10 chassis going into RP factory. The car is not a copy- its a clone. Not in the spirit of the rules- too many corners cut. And i dont buy the ‘makes b teams stronger’ horner BS, its moving closer to a racing series with 1 or 2 aero packs between all teams. Cmon your not fooling anyone... thumbs down
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

bill shoe
bill shoe
253
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:18 am
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

My armchair opinion of RP is shifting slightly.

Pics of competitor cars have always been allowed, but if you copy the entire bodywork in great detail, then have you "taken" aerodynamic parts from other teams? Seems yes.

Also, copying the aero-surfaces leaves you to figure out the structural and other functional aspects as many others on this forum have alluded to. Does the RP monocoque share the same construction details as the W10 or does it look like a PR home-brew monocoque that was built into the outer aero-body? The former seems obviously illegal, the latter seems extremely difficult, at least in terms of building a car that makes weight. I think even Merc had difficulty making min weight over the last few years, or at least making min weight with enough margin to move within the narrow fore-aft distribution allowances. So blah, blah, but yes I have some skepticism. Would appreciate a healthy, robust, slow challenge from Renault or the like.

User avatar
Big Tea
153
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

bill shoe wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:23 pm
My armchair opinion of RP is shifting slightly.

Pics of competitor cars have always been allowed, but if you copy the entire bodywork in great detail, then have you "taken" aerodynamic parts from other teams? Seems yes.

Also, copying the aero-surfaces leaves you to figure out the structural and other functional aspects as many others on this forum have alluded to. Does the RP monocoque share the same construction details as the W10 or does it look like a PR home-brew monocoque that was built into the outer aero-body? The former seems obviously illegal, the latter seems extremely difficult, at least in terms of building a car that makes weight. I think even Merc had difficulty making min weight over the last few years, or at least making min weight with enough margin to move within the narrow fore-aft distribution allowances. So blah, blah, but yes I have some skepticism. Would appreciate a healthy, robust, slow challenge from Renault or the like.
There is a saying that to copy someones work is plagiarism, but to copy everyone's work is research. Could this be adapted? :mrgreen:
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

thestig84
thestig84
6
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:09 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

izzy wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:27 pm
The rear wing endplates are RP ones aren't they, not the W10 ones. So i'm thinking RP have modelled the W10, using all the known coordinates they've had from having its PU and suspension, and now they're developing from it. They've learned all its flow structures and basically how it achieved its downforce, and now they're progressing from that base.
Are you able to share a photo of different rear wing endplates to the w10!? I can only find ones like this that are identical to the late season w10
Image

User avatar
izzy
70
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

LM10 wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:08 pm
From Autobild.de:

"Allegedly Renault is preparing a protest against Racing Point. Background: It is not allowed to take aerodynamic parts from other teams. Renault believe that Racing Point has done exactly that."
ooooh bombshell! Sporting Regulations:
APPENDIX 6
1. A competitor shall, in respect of the Listed Parts to be used in its cars in Formula One, only use
Listed Parts which are designed by it
.
2.
c) In the case of the Outsourcing of design, such third party shall not be a competitor or a
party that directly or indirectly designs Listed Parts for any competitor
LISTED PARTS
....
Bodywork as defined in Article 1.4 of the F1 Technical Regulations and regulated by Article 3 of the
F1 Technical Regulations with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed
bodywork geometries
Technical Regulations
1.4 Bodywork :
All entirely sprung parts of the car in contact with the external air stream
, except cameras,
camera housings, rear view mirrors as defined in Article 14.3, ERS status lights, the secondary
roll structure and associated fixings and fairings and the parts definitely associated with the
mechanical functioning of the engine, transmission and running gear. Airboxes, radiators and
engine exhausts are considered to be part of the bodywork.
Looks a bit tricky! Can they claim to have "designed" it by creating the actual thing from photos? Or can they rush through enough modified parts in time?

PowerandtheGlory
PowerandtheGlory
24
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:52 am

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

bill shoe wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:23 pm
My armchair opinion of RP is shifting slightly.

Pics of competitor cars have always been allowed, but if you copy the entire bodywork in great detail, then have you "taken" aerodynamic parts from other teams? Seems yes.

Also, copying the aero-surfaces leaves you to figure out the structural and other functional aspects as many others on this forum have alluded to. Does the RP monocoque share the same construction details as the W10 or does it look like a PR home-brew monocoque that was built into the outer aero-body? The former seems obviously illegal, the latter seems extremely difficult, at least in terms of building a car that makes weight. I think even Merc had difficulty making min weight over the last few years, or at least making min weight with enough margin to move within the narrow fore-aft distribution allowances. So blah, blah, but yes I have some skepticism. Would appreciate a healthy, robust, slow challenge from Renault or the like.
Even if there is a protest which i would also welcome - if only for the investigtion.
The FiA are toothless and will be far too scared to punish Papa stroll after all his investment in f1. There will be a public slap on the wrists but nothing more.
Copying a nose is 1 thing- but the bargeboards are an exact clone... shame on you Rp
That. Is. Cheating.
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

User avatar
izzy
70
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

thestig84 wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:37 pm
Are you able to share a photo of different rear wing endplates to the w10!? I can only find ones like this that are identical to the late season w10
https://imgr1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/V ... 671939.jpg
i can't immediately find the piece i read but those aren't identical are they? Given that they're all pretty similar with the combs banned. The side fins are much steeper on the RP and they look different lower down too, as far as we can see, and the proportions of the sawteeth are different. I think they can claim they designed it, even if it was obviously 'inspired by' the W10

They might need some other new parts before Oz tho... but they might be in the plan anyway

User avatar
izzy
70
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

and just to cool down some of the moral outrage a bit, this is what formul1.com reported about how the 2018 Haas was designed:
Built by Dallara, with Ferrari mechanicals and running gear, the VF-18 is developed in the Ferrari wind tunnel. Aerodynamicists from Maranello seconded onto the Haas project helped create the car’s concept, with Haas’ own aerodynamic department, operating out of Dallara, then developing it through the season, albeit still using the Ferrari tunnel.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... C2Miu.html

so this was the start, and it was always going to lead to more of the same, and in fact RP has done less if anything. Hopefully they're going to look at it for 2021

LM10
LM10
130
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

izzy wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:21 am
and just to cool down some of the moral outrage a bit, this is what formul1.com reported about how the 2018 Haas was designed:
Built by Dallara, with Ferrari mechanicals and running gear, the VF-18 is developed in the Ferrari wind tunnel. Aerodynamicists from Maranello seconded onto the Haas project helped create the car’s concept, with Haas’ own aerodynamic department, operating out of Dallara, then developing it through the season, albeit still using the Ferrari tunnel.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... C2Miu.html

so this was the start, and it was always going to lead to more of the same, and in fact RP has done less if anything. Hopefully they're going to look at it for 2021
The Haas has never been as much of a copy as the Racing Point is. This year's Haas has a different front wing, a different rear wing, different bargeboards, a different floor, a different engine cover, a different airbox. To name the obvious ones.
The steeper fins on the rear wing of the RP20 could not be of more irrelevance. Probably they've made it like this to argue that it's not an exact copy. :lol: