2021 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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So far they're right around expectations.

peewon
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:41 pm
So far they're right around expectations.
Expectations have been tempered because everyone assumes that their resources are dedicated towards next year. But Im wouldn't be very optimistic about 2022 either for a few reasons:

1. Mclaren, which is a similar sized team, has shown consistent progress since the joining of Andreas Seidl and left Renault/Alpine behind by miles. I doubt they're heavily sacrificing their future development either.

2. Ricciardo leaving a works team after having close experience with the setup for 2 seasons.

3. I wont claim to be an expert on F1 staff credentials or salaries but Dirk De Beer's resume is not very impressive as an aerodynamicist despite vast experience and based on past performance, relying on him to lead the team into a new era of aero regulations seems like a low percentage (cheap) gamble.

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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peewon wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:37 am
diffuser wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:41 pm
So far they're right around expectations.
Expectations have been tempered because everyone assumes that their resources are dedicated towards next year. But Im wouldn't be very optimistic about 2022 either for a few reasons:

1. Mclaren, which is a similar sized team, has shown consistent progress since the joining of Andreas Seidl and left Renault/Alpine behind by miles. I doubt they're heavily sacrificing their future development either.

2. Ricciardo leaving a works team after having close experience with the setup for 2 seasons.

3. I wont claim to be an expert on F1 staff credentials or salaries but Dirk De Beer's resume is not very impressive as an aerodynamicist despite vast experience and based on past performance, relying on him to lead the team into a new era of aero regulations seems like a low percentage (cheap) gamble.
Beer's doesn't rock my world either. He had been head of aero at enstone for may many years. They do have Ben Mallock that came over from AT in Aug 2020 as deputy head of aero and can't remember his name now as Chief Head of Aero.

In software engineering that I work in, the heads are always just managers, the real work gets done below. Maybe it's the same in F1?

peewon
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:56 am
peewon wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:37 am
diffuser wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:41 pm
So far they're right around expectations.
Expectations have been tempered because everyone assumes that their resources are dedicated towards next year. But Im wouldn't be very optimistic about 2022 either for a few reasons:

1. Mclaren, which is a similar sized team, has shown consistent progress since the joining of Andreas Seidl and left Renault/Alpine behind by miles. I doubt they're heavily sacrificing their future development either.

2. Ricciardo leaving a works team after having close experience with the setup for 2 seasons.

3. I wont claim to be an expert on F1 staff credentials or salaries but Dirk De Beer's resume is not very impressive as an aerodynamicist despite vast experience and based on past performance, relying on him to lead the team into a new era of aero regulations seems like a low percentage (cheap) gamble.
Beer's doesn't rock my world either. They do have Ben Mallock that came over from AT in Aug 2020 as deputy head aero and can't remember his now as Chief Head of Aero.

In software engineering that I work in, the heads are always managers, the real work gets done below. Maybe it's the same in F1?
I think the point still applies, in so much that he's held the same title since 2008 including at Enstone during the 2009 changes when Renault finished 8th. Never finished above 4th and was hired this time at Renault after being let go from Williams after 1 year due to poor performance, which is an unusually short time in F1 for that type of position, if I may say so. I hope he proves me wrong but if I had to bet, Id bet that he doesn't.

More broadly speaking, even a team like Aston Martin has tangibly demonstrated the ability of their technical staff to explore the limits of the regulations in some aspects with their tyre warming/pressure trickery. Even if it might not a significant advantage after the rule alterations. It could be there for Alpine but nothing that you can point to as evidence. In other areas, like race strategies, they are either default or at times, sub-optimal like Spain, rarely creating an advantage.

Nothing thats unquestionably damning but not much to point to and feel optimistic about either.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:58 pm
diffuser wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:51 pm
RedNEO wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:14 pm
My interpretation is that currently Red Bull is above Ren/Alp so they would be building an engine to fit Red Bulls needs so it wouldn’t benefit Alpine and that’s fair for both parties to want different things.

I know for a fact that when he was refering to Renault that he meant that they didn't want to spend F1 winning $$$ on the PU. Now that was back when they were Renault and before the CAP.

The CAP is now basically where Renault were spending.
I presume Alpine are at maximum of the budget cap for developing 2022 car.

Is the 2022 Renault power unit being built with 'unlimited' budget approved, given power unit budget is (for now) unrestricted? Spending more than all the other power unit suppliers should be the best way to build the F1 class-leading power unit (at least in theory) -- 2022 has to be year for Alpine-Renault to win whatever the cost, surely? :)
The hope is they have really thrown everything at the 2022 car but especially engine since they will need to be up there with the best to stand a chance to fight them on equal terms. Aero is more regulated but that will also require careful use of extra wind tunnel/cfd time spent compared to there rivals. This year needs to be what 2019 was to McLaren for Alpine. They are showing flashes of speed but they are held back by the limitations built into this year. The question is can they match the best when those restrictions are lifted next year?

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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RedNEO wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:32 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:58 pm
diffuser wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:51 pm



I know for a fact that when he was refering to Renault that he meant that they didn't want to spend F1 winning $$$ on the PU. Now that was back when they were Renault and before the CAP.

The CAP is now basically where Renault were spending.
I presume Alpine are at maximum of the budget cap for developing 2022 car.

Is the 2022 Renault power unit being built with 'unlimited' budget approved, given power unit budget is (for now) unrestricted? Spending more than all the other power unit suppliers should be the best way to build the F1 class-leading power unit (at least in theory) -- 2022 has to be year for Alpine-Renault to win whatever the cost, surely? :)
The hope is they have really thrown everything at the 2022 car but especially engine since they will need to be up there with the best to stand a chance to fight them on equal terms. Aero is more regulated but that will also require careful use of extra wind tunnel/cfd time spent compared to there rivals. This year needs to be what 2019 was to McLaren for Alpine. They are showing flashes of speed but they are held back by the limitations built into this year. The question is can they match the best when those restrictions are lifted next year?
The other thing is we, as viewers, have come to the conclusion that Newey is the best in buisness. So maybe he was at one point... Maybe he still is but how much better is he 5%? My point isn't just pointed at Newey, in so much as I'm just using him as an example... How much of Newey's perceived aero ability stems from his ability and how much of it comes from RBR consistantly spending double what 70% of the field has spent? A large percentage of the cars on track performance has to be attributed to the budget and no so much of the individual.

I really think we need to forgot what we've perceived F1 to be before 2022. The Mercedes type teams of F1 are gonna have a really hard time staying ahead of midfield the way they have in the past. When they're not so far ahead ...We've seen that even drivers like Hamilton make mistakes when pushed to the edge. It's one thing when you're driving at 90% of your ability and killing the opposition. It's another when even 100% isn't enough on some days. You need to start choosing options that have a higher risk of ending in tears to leap ahead. Think you can stretch that analogy to chassis/aero engineers, again easy to out perform the other team when you have twice the employees.


Back to De Beers.. can you really fairly compare him to the other Aero heads on teams like Merc and RBR? He did spend time at Ferrari (as Chief of Aero), really those were at the start of the new PU era, they didn't have a chance against the Merc PU. At Williams god knows what happened, that was such a mess. The Lotus years with James Allison and Kimi had some pretty solid cars on a shoe string budget.
Last edited by diffuser on Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

peewon
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:46 pm
RedNEO wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:32 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:58 pm


I presume Alpine are at maximum of the budget cap for developing 2022 car.

Is the 2022 Renault power unit being built with 'unlimited' budget approved, given power unit budget is (for now) unrestricted? Spending more than all the other power unit suppliers should be the best way to build the F1 class-leading power unit (at least in theory) -- 2022 has to be year for Alpine-Renault to win whatever the cost, surely? :)
The hope is they have really thrown everything at the 2022 car but especially engine since they will need to be up there with the best to stand a chance to fight them on equal terms. Aero is more regulated but that will also require careful use of extra wind tunnel/cfd time spent compared to there rivals. This year needs to be what 2019 was to McLaren for Alpine. They are showing flashes of speed but they are held back by the limitations built into this year. The question is can they match the best when those restrictions are lifted next year?
The other thing is we, as viewers, have come to the conclusion that Newey is the best in buisness. So maybe he was at one point... Maybe he still is but how much better is he 5%? My point isn't just pointed at Newey, in so much as I'm just using him as an example... How much of Newey's perceived aero ability stems from his ability and how much of it comes from RBR consistantly spending double what 70% of the field has spent? A large percentage of the cars on track performance has to be attributed to the budget and no so much of the individual.

I really think we need to forgot what we've perceived F1 to be before 2022. The Mercedes type teams of F1 are gonna have a really hard time staying ahead of midfield the way they have in the past. When they're not so far ahead ...We've seen that even drivers like Hamilton make mistakes when pushed to the edge. It's one thing when you're driving at 90% of your ability and killing the opposition. It's another when even 100% isn't enough on some days. You need to start choosing options that have a higher risk of ending in tears to leap ahead.


Back to De Beers.. can you really fairly compare him to the other Aero heads on teams like Merc and RBR? He did spend time at Ferrari (as Chief of Aero), really those were at the start of the new PU era, they didn't have a chance against the Merc PU. At Williams god knows what happened, that was such a mess. The Lotus years with James Allison and Kimi had some pretty solid cars on a shoe string budget.
Your point about past budget differences is well taken. Hopefully the cap rules are enough to prevent breakaway leaders like 2009 and 2014.

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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peewon wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:59 pm

I think the point still applies, in so much that he's held the same title since 2008 including at Enstone during the 2009 changes when Renault finished 8th. Never finished above 4th and was hired this time at Renault after being let go from Williams after 1 year due to poor performance, which is an unusually short time in F1 for that type of position, if I may say so. I hope he proves me wrong but if I had to bet, Id bet that he doesn't.

More broadly speaking, even a team like Aston Martin has tangibly demonstrated the ability of their technical staff to explore the limits of the regulations in some aspects with their tyre warming/pressure trickery. Even if it might not a significant advantage after the rule alterations. It could be there for Alpine but nothing that you can point to as evidence. In other areas, like race strategies, they are either default or at times, sub-optimal like Spain, rarely creating an advantage.

Nothing thats unquestionably damning but not much to point to and feel optimistic about either.
You got to remember they were fighting teams that spent double what they were spending. Finishing 4th was like score 3 times the point than they scored. They lost Kubica to the Rally accident. The 2008 recession hit Renault so hard, they pulled out of F1 from a chassis perspective soon after. Wasn't till they dragged Kimi out of retirement that they got back on track as Lotus.

At William's, that was part of the Patty Lowe Debacle. That team kept going downhill after De Beers left. The 2019 car was alot worse without him. The 2020 car was not much better. You got to put stuff into context.

Personally I'm worried AMR is a disaster in waiting. Not sure what you're seeing there. Getting rid of Perez was a step backwards.Thought Stroll was a good #2 to Perez.

Let's see if I'm right. I hope that Alonso's side of the garage found something in Austria2. Think he deserved 5th or 6th in Austria2.

I am starting to get worried about the 3 year contract to Ocon though.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:57 am
peewon wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:59 pm

I think the point still applies, in so much that he's held the same title since 2008 including at Enstone during the 2009 changes when Renault finished 8th. Never finished above 4th and was hired this time at Renault after being let go from Williams after 1 year due to poor performance, which is an unusually short time in F1 for that type of position, if I may say so. I hope he proves me wrong but if I had to bet, Id bet that he doesn't.

More broadly speaking, even a team like Aston Martin has tangibly demonstrated the ability of their technical staff to explore the limits of the regulations in some aspects with their tyre warming/pressure trickery. Even if it might not a significant advantage after the rule alterations. It could be there for Alpine but nothing that you can point to as evidence. In other areas, like race strategies, they are either default or at times, sub-optimal like Spain, rarely creating an advantage.

Nothing thats unquestionably damning but not much to point to and feel optimistic about either.
You got to remember they were fighting teams that spent double what they were spending. Finishing 4th was like score 3 times the point than they scored. They lost Kubica to the Rally accident. The 2008 recession hit Renault so hard, they pulled out of F1 from a chassis perspective soon after. Wasn't till they dragged Kimi out of retirement that they got back on track as Lotus.

At William's, that was part of the Patty Lowe Debacle. That team kept going downhill after De Beers left. The 2019 car was alot worse without him. The 2020 car was not much better. You got to put stuff into context.

Personally I'm worried AMR is a disaster in waiting. Not sure what you're seeing there. Getting rid of Perez was a step backwards.Thought Stroll was a good #2 to Perez.

Let's see if I'm right. I hope that Alonso's side of the garage found something in Austria2. Think he deserved 5th or 6th in Austria2.

I am starting to get worried about the 3 year contract to Ocon though.
Ocon wants to change his whole car, Alonso can do that to teammates who are not mentally strong to deal with the thrashing. He’s only gonna get stronger so I hope Ocon is prepared for that or he will be the next Vandoorne.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:46 pm
RedNEO wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:32 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:58 pm


I presume Alpine are at maximum of the budget cap for developing 2022 car.

Is the 2022 Renault power unit being built with 'unlimited' budget approved, given power unit budget is (for now) unrestricted? Spending more than all the other power unit suppliers should be the best way to build the F1 class-leading power unit (at least in theory) -- 2022 has to be year for Alpine-Renault to win whatever the cost, surely? :)
The hope is they have really thrown everything at the 2022 car but especially engine since they will need to be up there with the best to stand a chance to fight them on equal terms. Aero is more regulated but that will also require careful use of extra wind tunnel/cfd time spent compared to there rivals. This year needs to be what 2019 was to McLaren for Alpine. They are showing flashes of speed but they are held back by the limitations built into this year. The question is can they match the best when those restrictions are lifted next year?
The other thing is we, as viewers, have come to the conclusion that Newey is the best in buisness. So maybe he was at one point... Maybe he still is but how much better is he 5%? My point isn't just pointed at Newey, in so much as I'm just using him as an example... How much of Newey's perceived aero ability stems from his ability and how much of it comes from RBR consistantly spending double what 70% of the field has spent? A large percentage of the cars on track performance has to be attributed to the budget and no so much of the individual.

I really think we need to forgot what we've perceived F1 to be before 2022. The Mercedes type teams of F1 are gonna have a really hard time staying ahead of midfield the way they have in the past. When they're not so far ahead ...We've seen that even drivers like Hamilton make mistakes when pushed to the edge. It's one thing when you're driving at 90% of your ability and killing the opposition. It's another when even 100% isn't enough on some days. You need to start choosing options that have a higher risk of ending in tears to leap ahead. Think you can stretch that analogy to chassis/aero engineers, again easy to out perform the other team when you have twice the employees.


Back to De Beers.. can you really fairly compare him to the other Aero heads on teams like Merc and RBR? He did spend time at Ferrari (as Chief of Aero), really those were at the start of the new PU era, they didn't have a chance against the Merc PU. At Williams god knows what happened, that was such a mess. The Lotus years with James Allison and Kimi had some pretty solid cars on a shoe string budget.
I think last year and this year especially is a preview under the budget cap how things will go in the future. Yes merc and Red Bull are still ahead but not by much and next years aero rules will close that gap a bit more maybe not initially but sooner or later all teams will be within 1 second of each other and we need to fall on the good side of that ideally from the start. If alpine can produce a car that’s already within a few tenths of the best from the start as a minimum that will be acceptable.

Alpine is only one team it doesn’t have any customers or b-teams like merc or red bull so they need to make sure they get it right from the start because otherwise they will find themselves swallowed by both teams and there b-teams. It’s a crucial yet exciting time leading up to next year and I can’t wait to see what happens.

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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This year the top teams designed their cars last year, before the budget came into effect. The top teams cars had all this incremental improvements done year after year to the cars for the current regs. Stuff like when RBR figures out how to run the exhaust under the PU costs money. That makes the rear look so narrow.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:48 pm
This year the top teams designed their cars last year, before the budget came into effect. The top teams cars had all this incremental improvements done year after year to the cars for the current regs. Stuff like when RBR figures out how to run the exhaust under the PU costs money. That makes the rear look so narrow.
Stability is the most important thing to making sure we have a good aero platform rather than a individual. They have been swapping and changing upfront so that can create opportunities as well because disruption isn’t ideal just before a rules change.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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Another AMuS article about Alpine: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... onso-ocon/

interesting parts:
- No car made such a jump between Austria 1 and 2, although their last upgrade was in France
- Only thing they changed was brake cooling, they were too conservative in Austria 1 (quote Permane)
- Less brake cooling improved downforce at the rear a bit, ALO immediately comfirmed this on the team radio (also quote Permane)
- But engineers don't understand the big improvement in time, also not why OCO was 1 sec slower than ALO
- Engineers believe that the car is a good one but very tricky to set up for the right window and this is changing with every tyre compound.
- Car is not good when heavy braking is needed (and much brake cooling), better in fluid tracks
- However car won't be a winning car even if they find the holy grail all the time
- ALO: things won't change in 2nd half of the season, but they need to finetune the procedures for 2022.
Credit to blacky from autosport for translation

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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RedNEO wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:23 pm
Another AMuS article about Alpine: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... onso-ocon/

interesting parts:
- No car made such a jump between Austria 1 and 2, although their last upgrade was in France
- Only thing they changed was brake cooling, they were too conservative in Austria 1 (quote Permane)
- Less brake cooling improved downforce at the rear a bit, ALO immediately comfirmed this on the team radio (also quote Permane)
- But engineers don't understand the big improvement in time, also not why OCO was 1 sec slower than ALO
- Engineers believe that the car is a good one but very tricky to set up for the right window and this is changing with every tyre compound.
- Car is not good when heavy braking is needed (and much brake cooling), better in fluid tracks
- However car won't be a winning car even if they find the holy grail all the time
- ALO: things won't change in 2nd half of the season, but they need to finetune the procedures for 2022.
Credit to blacky from autosport for translation


Good read, thanks again for that...

Especially interesting was that the decreasing of the front brake cooling(ducts size) got them more rear DF. kind of explains some of the playing around with the height of the front wing.

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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Here is a good one too! Answers some of the questions we saw last week ...

https://www.grandprix.com/news/struggli ... owski.html

In truth, though, Alpine is already much more focused on 2022.

"The 2022 car is getting a lot of attention," Budkowski confirmed. "We are still doing some small parts, but the work in the wind tunnel has been completely turned towards next year's project."