2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Gillian
Gillian
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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That's not what godlameroso is saying. He is saying Red Bull/Verstappen did not exceed track limits in Bahrain where Mercedes/Hamilton did and that's why the latter gained time in the race. Had Mercedes driven the same lines as Red Bull (which was not needed because the track limits where changed), then they would have been slower. That's all in response to comparing pace of the cars in that specific race.

Can we now stop comparing Red Bull and Mercedes? This is Red Bull team thread and it's getting a little tiresome. Maybe make another thread if anyone wants to continue comparing the teams and their performance.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Gillian wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:47 pm
That's not what godlameroso is saying. He is saying Red Bull/Verstappen did not exceed track limits in Bahrain where Mercedes/Hamilton did and that's why the latter gained time in the race. Had Mercedes driven the same lines as Red Bull (which was not needed because the track limits where changed), then they would have been slower. That's all in response to comparing pace of the cars in that specific race.

Can we now stop comparing Red Bull and Mercedes? This is Red Bull team thread and it's getting a little tiresome. Maybe make another thread if anyone wants to continue comparing the teams and their performance.
I believe godlameroso was initially saying that the track limits defined at Losail and the loosening of them during the weekend were detrimental to Red bull and beneficial to Mercedes. Then oddly Bahrain was also brought up even though it's not an apt comparison.

At the risk of prolonging this and rehashing old ground even further, in Bahrain Mercedes and Hamilton didn't actually exceed track limits, because at the part of the race in question when it was happening, that area constituted being within track limits and all the drivers were told this. It's more that Verstappen and Red Bull were not using the full width available to them.

But I agree it's time for a line to be drawn under it.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Gillian wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:47 pm
That's not what godlameroso is saying. He is saying Red Bull/Verstappen did not exceed track limits in Bahrain where Mercedes/Hamilton did and that's why the latter gained time in the race. Had Mercedes driven the same lines as Red Bull (which was not needed because the track limits where changed), then they would have been slower. That's all in response to comparing pace of the cars in that specific race.

Can we now stop comparing Red Bull and Mercedes? This is Red Bull team thread and it's getting a little tiresome. Maybe make another thread if anyone wants to continue comparing the teams and their performance.
yes but he is also insinuating other things that none of us have proof for, so we are just trying to clear that up.

I've asked already, but was there any reason given by RB as to why Checo didn't make Q3 in Qatar?
Felipe Baby!

DChemTech
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Masi after Bahrain: "it was mentioned very clearly in the [drivers’] meeting and the notes that it would not be monitored with regard to setting the lap time so to speak – but it will always be monitored in according with the Sporting Regulations that a lasting advantage overall must not be gained." (https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... wuHDU.html)

I do still believe they failed in Bahrain on the bold part. MB did exceed track limits in this context, while RB respected this rule (to a larger degree at least) - and this was insufficiently picked up. In corners that are not 'actively monitored' not every single digression has to be picked up, but systemic ones should still be addressed, and before half the race is over.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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DChemTech wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:57 pm
Masi after Bahrain: "it was mentioned very clearly in the [drivers’] meeting and the notes that it would not be monitored with regard to setting the lap time so to speak – but it will always be monitored in according with the Sporting Regulations that a lasting advantage overall must not be gained." (https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... wuHDU.html)

I do still believe they failed in Bahrain on the bold part. MB did exceed track limits in this context, while RB respected this rule (to a larger degree at least) - and this was insufficiently picked up. In corners that are not 'actively monitored' not every single digression has to be picked up, but systemic ones should still be addressed, and before half the race is over.
The lasting advantage reference is only used with regards to overtaking or blocking an overtake.

When You are lapping on your own, they will Mention exceeding track limits
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DChemTech
DChemTech
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:04 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:57 pm
Masi after Bahrain: "it was mentioned very clearly in the [drivers’] meeting and the notes that it would not be monitored with regard to setting the lap time so to speak – but it will always be monitored in according with the Sporting Regulations that a lasting advantage overall must not be gained." (https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... wuHDU.html)

I do still believe they failed in Bahrain on the bold part. MB did exceed track limits in this context, while RB respected this rule (to a larger degree at least) - and this was insufficiently picked up. In corners that are not 'actively monitored' not every single digression has to be picked up, but systemic ones should still be addressed, and before half the race is over.
The lasting advantage reference is only used with regards to overtaking or blocking an overtake.

When You are lapping on your own, they will Mention exceeding track limits
And that is why they fail. Structurally using the run-off area is as much as a lasting advantage.

Revs84
Revs84
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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The problem is the inconsistency from FIA regarding track limits. It's been a mess all year.

In some events, the track limit was the white line and in others the kerb. How difficult is it to choose one standard and stick by it for all races? It blows my mind.

In Bahrain, the turn you guys are talking about, Masi said it will not be monitored, so Hamilton regularly exploited it. Verstappen didn't. It seemed he somewhat wasn't aware, or maybe it was understood by Red Bull that even though it would not be monitored, track limits still applied. Which in my opinion makes sense.

Only after RB contacted Masi was it suddenly enforced. But by that time, it was already too late.

I just hope next year FIA will get this sorted.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AMuS article from today (google translation, employees should just be rake=Anstellung) theorizing about the relatively high top speed of Red Bull despite running the high DF RW - tl:dr they lowered the rake to balance the car and lower the risk of damaging the FW and floor which lowered the drag but cost them performance in the corners. No idea how realistic that is.

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Well, I was very afraid of a FW going like Gasly’s one did. Just get a bit unlucky on a kerb and have it “bite” due to it hanging so low wit h the rake. Indeed, how feasible, or even possible it is to dial the rake a bit down?

djones
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:58 am
Well, I was very afraid of a FW going like Gasly’s one did. Just get a bit unlucky on a kerb and have it “bite” due to it hanging so low wit h the rake. Indeed, how feasible, or even possible it is to dial the rake a bit down?
It’s probably like Merc in COTA where they were really fast then had to raise the car.

Your just balancing reliability vs performance. Given Mercedes are superior these recent few races I suspect Redbull won’t be holding back, they will go for a non-conservative setup.

HungarianRacer
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:15 pm
SiLo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:59 am
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:16 am
People thought Max had it sealed, and now people thing Hamilton has it sealed. I just don't know man, I just don't know. I may sound like a broken record, but having had some time around the next track, I can't say it will be as easy for Mercedes. For one, you can't run max downforce around there, second we know the Red Bull is good around esses and high speed corners, which is all the next track is.

It will be closer next race, the track characteristics are a mixture of Mexico and COTA, or a flat Spa or a faster Montreal. There are two traction sensitive corners around Jeddah, the banked "hairpin" and the final corner. The rest you have to be very brave and come close to the wall. 2 stopper for sure.
I think Losail kind of disproves this "RB high speed king" rhetoric, Mercedes looked very good there everywhere on track, especially the corners. I know there are corners but this feels much more like Silverstone levels for a downforce package, and they were very fast there too.

I'm hoping Perez can have a good race as well, I really want to see both Mercs and both RBs right at the front fighting. I assume the DRS issue won't be a problem as they will probably run the spoon wing?
Not really, the track was modified, had track limits been more strictly enforced things would have looked differently. Also Max was flat through the 12-15 section, that means he was carrying more downforce. Also Red Bull couldn't use their normal wing and had to resort to their max downforce wing. Mexico still shows what the car can do when it's working right.
You either didn't pay close attention to qualifying or intentionally lying to deceive... First of all, nobody took T15 flat, I'm pretty sure that would've been absolutely impossible even for the 2020 cars on softer tyres... In T14 Max had a slightly bigger lift than Lewis, had a 1 km/h lower minimum speed, in T15 he reversed that difference, but ran wider on the exit kerbs as a result... But none of those turns are high-margin anyway, his biggest loss ironically came in T6, the tightest radius bend of the whole track, where he braked much sooner for the corner, yet still carried less speed through... His other losses occurred in T4 & 5, in the extremely long radius T7, despite clocking a 4 km/h lower min. speed and hitting a slightly later apex, he yet again ran marginally wider on the exit kerbs, not exactly a tell-tale sign of a downforce advantage. He was very slightly faster in T1, 2 and 10 though...


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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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HungarianRacer wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:11 pm
First of all, nobody took T15 flat, I'm pretty sure that would've been absolutely impossible even for the 2020 cars on softer tyres
On the contrary I'm fairly positive 2020 merc and red bull would be able to take this corner flat. 2020 cars just had more downforce and were faster across the board in all types of corners. If 2021 needs a slight lift you can be sure 2020 doesn't. Keep in mind alonso in alpine almost took it flat this year (faster than both ver/ham).


HungarianRacer
HungarianRacer
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:28 pm
HungarianRacer wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:11 pm
First of all, nobody took T15 flat, I'm pretty sure that would've been absolutely impossible even for the 2020 cars on softer tyres
On the contrary I'm fairly positive 2020 merc and red bull would be able to take this corner flat. 2020 cars just had more downforce and were faster across the board in all types of corners. If 2021 needs a slight lift you can be sure 2020 doesn't. Keep in mind alonso in alpine almost took it flat this year (faster than both ver/ham).

Are you sure we're looking at the same corner numberings? Here Turn 15 is the second to last corner (nowhere near flat for Alonso or anyone else):

Image

Anyhow, just to make this tangent thread-relevant, there's no way the Bulls had more downforce than the Mercs that weekend.

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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HungarianRacer wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:36 pm
Juzh wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:28 pm
HungarianRacer wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:11 pm
First of all, nobody took T15 flat, I'm pretty sure that would've been absolutely impossible even for the 2020 cars on softer tyres
On the contrary I'm fairly positive 2020 merc and red bull would be able to take this corner flat. 2020 cars just had more downforce and were faster across the board in all types of corners. If 2021 needs a slight lift you can be sure 2020 doesn't. Keep in mind alonso in alpine almost took it flat this year (faster than both ver/ham).

Are you sure we're looking at the same corner numberings? Here Turn 15 is the second to last corner (nowhere near flat for Alonso or anyone else):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... il.svg.png

Anyhow, just to make this tangent thread-relevant, there's no way the Bulls had more downforce than the Mercs that weekend.
Sorry, you're right. I got T14 and T15 mixed up.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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HungarianRacer wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:11 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:15 pm
SiLo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:59 am


I think Losail kind of disproves this "RB high speed king" rhetoric, Mercedes looked very good there everywhere on track, especially the corners. I know there are corners but this feels much more like Silverstone levels for a downforce package, and they were very fast there too.

I'm hoping Perez can have a good race as well, I really want to see both Mercs and both RBs right at the front fighting. I assume the DRS issue won't be a problem as they will probably run the spoon wing?
Not really, the track was modified, had track limits been more strictly enforced things would have looked differently. Also Max was flat through the 12-15 section, that means he was carrying more downforce. Also Red Bull couldn't use their normal wing and had to resort to their max downforce wing. Mexico still shows what the car can do when it's working right.
You either didn't pay close attention to qualifying or intentionally lying to deceive... First of all, nobody took T15 flat, I'm pretty sure that would've been absolutely impossible even for the 2020 cars on softer tyres... In T14 Max had a slightly bigger lift than Lewis, had a 1 km/h lower minimum speed, in T15 he reversed that difference, but ran wider on the exit kerbs as a result... But none of those turns are high-margin anyway, his biggest loss ironically came in T6, the tightest radius bend of the whole track, where he braked much sooner for the corner, yet still carried less speed through... His other losses occurred in T4 & 5, in the extremely long radius T7, despite clocking a 4 km/h lower min. speed and hitting a slightly later apex, he yet again ran marginally wider on the exit kerbs, not exactly a tell-tale sign of a downforce advantage. He was very slightly faster in T1, 2 and 10 though...

Qualifying doesn't always tell the full picture, Verstappen was much better though 8 as well. Most of the deficit came from turn 6, the most traction sensitive corner on the entire track, much like Hamilton had a massive advantage out of Juncao in Brazil. Verstappen braked earlier not to carry more speed through the corner but to line up the exit better than Hamilton.

Remember that Verstappen likely saw the yellow flag already in sector 2 likely compromising his rhythm.

So using that truncated qualifying as definitive proof is either myopic or intentionally deceitful.
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