2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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BlueCheetah66
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:47 pm
Pany wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:42 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:45 am


in Baku didn't the telemetry say Lewis didn't brake. In Saudi the telemetry showed Max DID. you feeling alright tonight?

also Vet didn't get a penalty for running in to the back of Ham. he got it for pulling alongside and swiping at him. all under a SC .
In baku lewis decellerated quite abruptly. Max did brake, yes, quite softly in order to let lewis pass. You are a lier
69 bar of brake pressure, and 2.4G of deceleration is not braking "softly"!
Can someone explain what 69 bar of brake pressure means and reference to what that would be like

Raleigh
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:56 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:47 pm
Pany wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:42 pm

In baku lewis decellerated quite abruptly. Max did brake, yes, quite softly in order to let lewis pass. You are a lier
69 bar of brake pressure, and 2.4G of deceleration is not braking "softly"!
Can someone explain what 69 bar of brake pressure means and reference to what that would be like
For frame of reference, a full emergency stop in a road car will generate about 1.2G of deceleration. Obviously an F1 car can brake much harder than that, hardest stops on the calendar are just under 5G deceleration.

So 2.4G deceleration is about half of maximum braking for an F1 car, but it's still twice the maximum braking force a road car can generate and definitely a significant brake pressure.

Also, I should mention 5G isn't possible except at high speed with a lot of downforce effect. Slowed down on the straight like that 2.4G probably isn't far off maximum braking power.
Last edited by Raleigh on Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:56 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:47 pm
Pany wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:42 pm

In baku lewis decellerated quite abruptly. Max did brake, yes, quite softly in order to let lewis pass. You are a lier
69 bar of brake pressure, and 2.4G of deceleration is not braking "softly"!
Can someone explain what 69 bar of brake pressure means and reference to what that would be like
The 69 bar of brake pressure means absolutely nothing without lots of other information.
It is the pressure in the hydraulic system which needs calculations of piston area and also does not account for retardation from the ERS.

It was useful to the stewards just to demonstrate the peddle had been pressed quite hard, not accidentally
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Raleigh wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:07 pm
BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:56 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:47 pm


69 bar of brake pressure, and 2.4G of deceleration is not braking "softly"!
Can someone explain what 69 bar of brake pressure means and reference to what that would be like
For frame of reference, a full emergency stop in a road car will generate about 1.2G of deceleration. Obviously an F1 car can brake much harder than that, hardest stops on the calendar are just under 5G deceleration.

So 2.4G deceleration is about half of maximum braking for an F1 car, but it's still twice the maximum braking force a road car can generate and definitely a significant brake pressure.

Also, I should mention 5G isn't possible except at high speed with a lot of downforce effect. Slowed down on the straight like that 2.4G probably isn't far off maximum braking power.
It's also worth noting the the ~5G of deceleration an f1 Car can develop is when hitting the brakes at high speed (300 + KMH). For example braking for turn 1 in Monza. This is only possible because the car is heavily loaded with downforce, and thus has a lot of grip available form the tires. If the driver applied the same amount of braking force at 100-150 KMH, they most likely lock both front wheels.

Exactly how much deceleration can be generated will depend on the tire, asphalt, fuel load, aero package, and aerodynamic conditions.
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Incognito
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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At least one professional driver has pointed out that Verstappen braked so hard that he locked the rear wheels for an instant (you can, apparently, hear it on the audio from Verstappen's onboard), then Hamilton hit him, and then Verstappen races off into the distance for several minutes. Almost as if he expected a penalty and was trying to pull the gap to nullify it...

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Swifty
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:39 pm
Swifty wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:29 pm
Toto assembled the better car, the better PU and, of course, the better driver.
Earlier in the season when Hamilton was under real pressure of not having by far the best performing car and worse season prospects he was falling off the track every second race. If it were not for Bottas playing bowling in Hungary then Hamilton's title chances would be much, much further away than what they are now. It's easy to play strategic mind games on track if you're in an inherently faster car that's also sh1tloads faster on straights, thus making it dead easy to put constant pressure on the guy in front.

Case in point: everyone knew Perez was never going to overtake hamilton in mexico and that Verstappen was never getting past hamilton in USA because red bull's advantage came from being fast in corners and snail slow on straights. Fast forward to brazil, and everyone with an ounce of brainpower knew Verstappen will be done for at one point in the race and exactly the same scenario happened in Saudi Arabia (and will happen again in abu dhabi if verstappen somehow gets ahead of hamilton on track).
What about no restart in Baku due to Verstappen's bad tires management? Huh??

But it's good you realize there is nothing else RBR or Honda can do to try and put on a fight. History will be made come next sunday.

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Swifty wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:02 pm
Juzh wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:39 pm
Swifty wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:29 pm
Toto assembled the better car, the better PU and, of course, the better driver.
Earlier in the season when Hamilton was under real pressure of not having by far the best performing car and worse season prospects he was falling off the track every second race. If it were not for Bottas playing bowling in Hungary then Hamilton's title chances would be much, much further away than what they are now. It's easy to play strategic mind games on track if you're in an inherently faster car that's also sh1tloads faster on straights, thus making it dead easy to put constant pressure on the guy in front.

Case in point: everyone knew Perez was never going to overtake hamilton in mexico and that Verstappen was never getting past hamilton in USA because red bull's advantage came from being fast in corners and snail slow on straights. Fast forward to brazil, and everyone with an ounce of brainpower knew Verstappen will be done for at one point in the race and exactly the same scenario happened in Saudi Arabia (and will happen again in abu dhabi if verstappen somehow gets ahead of hamilton on track).
What about no restart in Baku due to Verstappen's bad tires management? Huh??
Very weak argument you've just dished out. Verstappen was cruising in Baku but pirellis had other ideas. There was nothing he could have done in that race to prevent that, just as Norris couldn't do anything to prevent his hard (C1 compound, hardest tyre in entire range) front left tyre going pop after just 23 laps in Qatar (all this after soft did 24 laps in previous stint). Pirellis are simply a crap tyre that anyone can fall victim to and have been since they came into this sport.

One person who could have prevented himself from scoring zero points in Baku was hamilton with his brake bias error, and that one was solely down to him.

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west52keep64
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:39 pm
Swifty wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:29 pm
Toto assembled the better car, the better PU and, of course, the better driver.
Earlier in the season when Hamilton was under real pressure of not having by far the best performing car and worse season prospects he was falling off the track every second race. If it were not for Bottas playing bowling in Hungary then Hamilton's title chances would be much, much further away than what they are now. It's easy to play strategic mind games on track if you're in an inherently faster car that's also sh1tloads faster on straights, thus making it dead easy to put constant pressure on the guy in front.
Everyone seems to forget that Hamilton made the mistake of not pitting at the restart, started the race on his own and then pitted the next lap to rejoin in last position. That race was by no means a "gift", he had to come through the field.

Anyway, I still think Verstappen has a solid chance of taking this championship. He's leading it on race wins, so if both cars DNF he wins the championship, and that's clearly his mindset. He dominated this race last year, and that was during a year when the Mercedes had a much bigger advantage. I fully expect Max to do everything possible to win this championship, and if that includes taking both cars out of the race to prevent Hamilton finishing ahead of him, that's what he will do. He absolutely will not care what people say, the record books will record him as the 2021 WDC and that's all that matters.

1m0bius1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Everyone is talking about the Merc Brazil engine deg. What about Max's, how many races did he get out of the Silverstone engine? Surely his engines would be reasonably tired too?

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Pany wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:42 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:45 am
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:23 am
Baku 2017 Vettel got a 10 second stop and go penalty for running into the back of Hamilton's car, where was Hamilton's 10 second stop and go penalty for running into Verstappen? In Baku Vettel claimed Hamilton brake checked him just like here. What a yoke!
in Baku didn't the telemetry say Lewis didn't brake. In Saudi the telemetry showed Max DID. you feeling alright tonight?

also Vet didn't get a penalty for running in to the back of Ham. he got it for pulling alongside and swiping at him. all under a SC .
In baku lewis decellerated quite abruptly. Max did brake, yes, quite softly in order to let lewis pass.
So you blame Lewis for lifting now. =D>

Hilarious. A driver is unable to fully lift off the throttle, while the SC is on track.

as for Max, he braked at 2.4g probably near the limit of the car.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Incognito wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:34 pm
At least one professional driver has pointed out that Verstappen braked so hard that he locked the rear wheels for an instant (you can, apparently, hear it on the audio from Verstappen's onboard), then Hamilton hit him, and then Verstappen races off into the distance for several minutes. Almost as if he expected a penalty and was trying to pull the gap to nullify it...
Yeah you can see it on camera too , Max's car just starts to rotate right before Lewis hit him.
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siskue2005
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:39 pm
Swifty wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:29 pm
Toto assembled the better car, the better PU and, of course, the better driver.
Earlier in the season when Hamilton was under real pressure of not having by far the best performing car and worse season prospects he was falling off the track every second race. If it were not for Bottas playing bowling in Hungary then Hamilton's title chances would be much, much further away than what they are now. It's easy to play strategic mind games on track if you're in an inherently faster car that's also sh1tloads faster on straights, thus making it dead easy to put constant pressure on the guy in front.
If only Max had run wide and conceded his position at Silverstone (just like countless times Lewis did in the last 3 races) then Max would be going into the last race with a 18 points lead, which practically means a guaranteed championship for him. That's even with the Bottas playing bowling in Hungary!

Rodak
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Can someone explain what 69 bar of brake pressure means and reference to what that would be like
69 bar is the pressure generated by the brake master cylinder(s) that is forcing the brake pads onto the brake disc to generate stopping force. 1 bar is atmospheric pressure, 14.7 lbs/inch², so 69 bar is about 1000 lbs/inch², which is not actually that high a pressure for braking.

Rodak
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Incognito wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:34 pm
At least one professional driver has pointed out that Verstappen braked so hard that he locked the rear wheels for an instant ...
That's interesting, as you typically want the fronts to lock first.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Rodak wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:28 am
Can someone explain what 69 bar of brake pressure means and reference to what that would be like
69 bar is the pressure generated by the brake master cylinder(s) that is forcing the brake pads onto the brake disc to generate stopping force. 1 bar is atmospheric pressure, 14.7 lbs/inch², so 69 bar is about 1000 lbs/inch², which is not actually that high a pressure for braking.
Keep in minds that the number and size of pistons on an F1 car are significant different to that of even a high end road car.
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