Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
bill shoe
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by bill shoe » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:30 am

honda_fun wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:15 pm
https://f1-motorsports-gp.com/

This blog analyzed the speed of every 0.1 seconds of both cars by telemetry at austlia GP.
The data was from lap 61 of VER and lap 58 of LEC from the approach of turn 1 to the point of brake at turn 3.
ImageI've noticed over the last two years that whenever we get Max vs. Anyone data, it consistently shows Max getting all his advantage via higher minimum speeds in the tight sections. Not clear if this is a car characteristic or a Max driving characteristic. I'll guess a bit of a both, where Max has the talent to really carry the excellent Newey cars through the tight stuff. Max and Newey may really suit each other well.

I'll add hail-mary thread relevance by saying: That Honda engine sure works, um, satisfactorily.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:11 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:06 am
Dry sump pump?
I am here scratching my head on why it is connected to the comoressor discharge.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:36 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:11 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:06 am
Dry sump pump?
I am here scratching my head on why it is connected to the comoressor discharge.
Oil drain for the bearing?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by roon » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:02 pm

The charge pipe elbow in question looks like it has three hydraulic connections. Could be that they built a hydraulic manifold into that part to simplify assembly. Otherwise: liquid cooled compressor housing?

Pyrone89
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Pyrone89 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:40 pm

Google translated version of the Japanese article which I stitched together:
Red Bull Honda's Max Verstappen won the pole position (PP) in the Hungarian Grand Prix. First PP for Verstappen. For Honda, it was the first PP in 142 races since the 2006 third round Australian GP (Jenson Button).

However, the 2006 F1 was an era where refueling was possible during the race, and the Q3 that decided the PP was attacking with fuel to be loaded at the start of the final race.

Therefore, rather than simply competing for speed at this time, the emphasis was on the battle of fighting for as little time as possible while mounting a little more fuel than rivals in anticipation of the race, and the value of PP is It was lower than before. Prior to that, a method that emphasized entertainment was adopted rather than a place to decide the fastest driver and machine, such as the introduction of a one-attack method.

In the 1992 Canadian Grand Prix, Ayrton Senna was the last time Honda won a PP in qualifying with the number of attacks and the amount of fuel loaded freely. In other words, the Hungarian Grand Prix PP was the moment Honda made the fastest lap on the course for the first time in 27 years.

The head-on game that Honda challenged.

This PP acquisition was not helped by the rain, but it can also be evaluated in terms of Honda's straight victory against Mercedes.

The battle between Honda and Mercedes began in Q2.

Verstappen decided to advance to Q3 in second place after Louis Hamilton (Mercedes). The difference is only 25/1000 seconds. I grasped the response that could be reversed.

Q3, the first attack. Verstappen suddenly fascinated me. Only one person broke the wall of 1 minute 15 seconds and marked 1 minute 14 seconds 958. I surpassed two Mercedes and got a temporary PP seat. It was the first time since Honda returned to '15 that Honda took the provisional PP in qualifying.

However, the Honda faction was not yet relieved. Both the Mercedes and Verstappen had another set of new soft tires, leaving the opportunity to attack once more. Moreover, because the Hungaroring, the stage of the Hungarian Grand Prix, is not usually raced, the road surface is dirty at the beginning of the run.
Radio from Verstappen.

Another thing that Honda was concerned about. In the first attack, Verstappen was wirelessly telling them that the battery had run out when he got up at the last corner.

The current F1 is a hybrid that integrates two regenerative energy systems into a turbo engine, and can use 120kW (about 33 seconds) motor-assisted deployment per lap.

The lap time when Verstappen struck out the provisional PP at Hungaroring was 1 minute 14 seconds 958 as described above, so it was running with turbo engine + motor assist for about 33 seconds and the turbo engine alone for the remaining 42 seconds That's right. This distribution is called “energy management” and how it is distributed depends on the characteristics of the power unit, the car settings, and the driver's accelerator work.

Verstappen felt that the battery had run out because the battery did not have a problem and the 120kW motor assist had been used up to that point.

Remote operation of the site in Japan and the UK.

However, if the driver wants power and feels power shortage, energy management may not have been optimal.

“We looked at the data of the first attack and responded to HRD Sakura, HRD MK, and the circuit at the same time for the second attack, and changed the energy management settings.” Toyoji Tanabe F1 Technical Director)

HRD Sakura is a laboratory that develops Honda F1 in Sakura City, Tochigi Prefecture. HRD MK is the front base of Honda F1 in Milton Keynes, England.

Verstappen travel data is also monitored by Honda staff in Japan and the United Kingdom, using satellite links from the circuit. Each engineer who received instructions from Tanabe TD made full use of the simulator to play out the optimal energy management and responded to Hangaro Link. The field engineer reset the new data that was sent and sent Verstappen to the last attack.

Sensor that the driver has.

Meanwhile, 5 minutes 52 seconds. Tanabe TD appreciates that it was a radio from Verstappen that made it possible.

“Driving data is not one, but dozens or hundreds of data are sent by telemetry. If anything, engineers are keeping an eye on the data so that it can respond immediately. However, since there is an enormous amount of data, analysis takes time.

If the driver with the best sensor is saying `` This is weird '', the engineer can quickly find where it seems to be a problem without looking at other data. ''

Verstappen's furious drive.

The last attack was not Hamilton, but the teammate Valteri Bottas. Moreover, up to sector 2, Bottas was 0.061 seconds faster. Everyone gave up Verstappen PP, but Verstappen and Honda staff believed.

Verstappen's computer controls included a new energy management, which was a modification of sector 3 sector.

Verstappen, who got up at the last corner, was no longer complaining. The time that passed the control line was 1 minute 14 seconds 572. Botas was 18/1000 seconds higher and gained a spectacular PP.

Red Bull's Christian Horner praised the run as "only in the last two corners, Max reversed Valtelli". Verstappen's sector 3 segment time of 21.021 seconds was the fastest of the 20 drivers, and sector 3 alone showed a furious drive that surpassed Bottas by 0.079 seconds.

The driving was made possible by Verstappen's courage to believe in Honda and the problem, and until Honda engineers in Japan and the UK's factories believed out the optimal energy management. It was a battle of 52 minutes.

henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:14 pm

Fascinating that they simulated and then changed the energy deployment settings within a few minutes. I wonder how close Max was to the simulation.

Shocking to see that even now some people think you get 33 seconds deployment per lap. I suppose it doesn’t matter. Magic happens, who cares if the coin is up the sleeve or in the pocket of the magician.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Pyrone89
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Pyrone89 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:13 am

henry wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:14 pm
Fascinating that they simulated and then changed the energy deployment settings within a few minutes. I wonder how close Max was to the simulation.

Shocking to see that even now some people think you get 33 seconds deployment per lap. I suppose it doesn’t matter. Magic happens, who cares if the coin is up the sleeve or in the pocket of the magician.
Maybe lost in translation but I read the Google translate version as 120kw allowed per lap, and then they used the old 33 secomds comparison to make it more relatable. So ghey didnt say 33 sec is in the rules as I read it.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:15 am

When this Japanese site says what we would like to hear/read (when translated) it is great but when it says something that we would not like to hear it is not (shocking).

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:24 am

What is unfortunate is is that a misconception has developed around the limit-case scenario (120 kW for 33 seconds/lap deployment) which was/is used to give a simple example of one of the infinite deployment options available.

I agree 100% with henry's analysis.
je suis charlie

honda_fun
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by honda_fun » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:12 pm

Image
Image

The air duct to an air compressor greatly stretches forward than the ICE.
Photo from Mr.Sakurai at British GP.

https://youtu.be/KkHCMVvvlhw

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:36 pm

A 3rd mgu-K will be allowed. Maybe Honda can improve packaging now, because the K can be mounted in the factory.

loner
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by loner » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:17 pm

this thread used to be hotter than hell .. no analyse to this rev limiter problem showed in Monza for MAX ?!!
para bellum.

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:59 pm

loner wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:17 pm
this thread used to be hotter than hell .. no analyse to this rev limiter problem showed in Monza for MAX ?!!
I mentioned on another thread, but I believe it can be attributed to under estimating the power output of the Honda PU by RB. Since gear selection is frozen in Australia for the year and can't be changed they've been caught out at Monza. They are now on the wrong side of the crossover point and the low drag level on a track like Monza is causing them to hit against the limiter.

loner
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by loner » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:04 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:59 pm
loner wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:17 pm
this thread used to be hotter than hell .. no analyse to this rev limiter problem showed in Monza for MAX ?!!
I mentioned on another thread, but I believe it can be attributed to under estimating the power output of the Honda PU by RB. Since gear selection is frozen in Australia for the year and can't be changed they've been caught out at Monza. They are now on the wrong side of the crossover point and the low drag level on a track like Monza is causing them to hit against the limiter.
Christian Horner, team principal
Max's pace was equal to that of the leaders and he was able to make up some good ground despite a slight issue with the rev limiter in the tow which made it very difficult for him to overtake.
thnx so are you saying that gear selection don't fit the spec 4 and there will be more problems or it depends of the nature of the circuit?
para bellum.

maguetox
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by maguetox » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:23 pm

loner wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:04 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:59 pm
loner wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:17 pm
this thread used to be hotter than hell .. no analyse to this rev limiter problem showed in Monza for MAX ?!!
I mentioned on another thread, but I believe it can be attributed to under estimating the power output of the Honda PU by RB. Since gear selection is frozen in Australia for the year and can't be changed they've been caught out at Monza. They are now on the wrong side of the crossover point and the low drag level on a track like Monza is causing them to hit against the limiter.
Christian Horner, team principal
Max's pace was equal to that of the leaders and he was able to make up some good ground despite a slight issue with the rev limiter in the tow which made it very difficult for him to overtake.
thnx so are you saying that gear selection don't fit the spec 4 and there will be more problems or it depends of the nature of the circuit?
If I understand correctly, it will depend of the situation, and in Monza with the tow the final gear maybe was a little short.

If the problem is the final gear, Mexico will be a place where RBR can have a serious problem.