Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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N21 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:06 pm
Does anyone know to what extent Max’ 2nd engine can be serviced / repaired by Honda? Is the complete PU sealed or can it be serviced? Apart from the possible obvious component swaps and their respective grid penalties
The damaged PU is currently in Sakura, to see if parts can still be used. It will be assessed whether a new 3rd PU will have to be used or whether it can be reasonably repaired.

N21
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wouter wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:16 pm
N21 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:06 pm
Does anyone know to what extent Max’ 2nd engine can be serviced / repaired by Honda? Is the complete PU sealed or can it be serviced? Apart from the possible obvious component swaps and their respective grid penalties
The damaged PU is currently in Sakura, to see if parts can still be used. It will be assessed whether a new 3rd PU will have to be used or whether it can be reasonably repaired.
Yup I know, but to what extent are Honda allowed to repair or service certain parts? Can they fit a new crankshaft, camshafts or pistons for example?

dans79
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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N21 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:50 pm
Wouter wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:16 pm
N21 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:06 pm
Does anyone know to what extent Max’ 2nd engine can be serviced / repaired by Honda? Is the complete PU sealed or can it be serviced? Apart from the possible obvious component swaps and their respective grid penalties
The damaged PU is currently in Sakura, to see if parts can still be used. It will be assessed whether a new 3rd PU will have to be used or whether it can be reasonably repaired.
Yup I know, but to what extent are Honda allowed to repair or service certain parts? Can they fit a new crankshaft, camshafts or pistons for example?
No, they can't change any of those components. If any of those are damaged then Max has to take a new ICE!
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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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N21 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:50 pm
Wouter wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:16 pm
N21 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:06 pm
Does anyone know to what extent Max’ 2nd engine can be serviced / repaired by Honda? Is the complete PU sealed or can it be serviced? Apart from the possible obvious component swaps and their respective grid penalties
The damaged PU is currently in Sakura, to see if parts can still be used. It will be assessed whether a new 3rd PU will have to be used or whether it can be reasonably repaired.
Yup I know, but to what extent are Honda allowed to repair or service certain parts? Can they fit a new crankshaft, camshafts or pistons for example?
I don't know exactly which parts can be repaired, but Yamamoto was hoping they could fix parts so they wouldn't have to use a new PU. So some parts are allowed to fix.

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bigblue
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wouter wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:22 pm
N21 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:50 pm
Wouter wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:16 pm


The damaged PU is currently in Sakura, to see if parts can still be used. It will be assessed whether a new 3rd PU will have to be used or whether it can be reasonably repaired.
Yup I know, but to what extent are Honda allowed to repair or service certain parts? Can they fit a new crankshaft, camshafts or pistons for example?
I don't know exactly which parts can be repaired, but Yamamoto was hoping they could fix parts so they wouldn't have to use a new PU. So some parts are allowed to fix.
I suppose they could canabalise a previous engine to get some parts, but no idea which, if any, parts are usable from an engine that has done it's intended life. Not many I'd guess, but that is a complete guess.

Hoffman900
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:49 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:04 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:47 am
This is the Honda engine thread, please discuss all thing Mercedes in the Mercedes PU thread
It was answering the question on why the Honda looked down relative to the Mercedes, compared to how it’s look previously. :roll:
Yeah but you didn't answer the question if whether or not the power was turned up or down. Your answer was about the car.
Short of using GPS data, which requires knowing all sorts of other metrics (good luck), you can’t say for sure unless you compare it against its competition.

We don’t have access to engine dynos.

The other problem is the power curve looks nothing like a naturally aspirated or a turbo ic engine where the turbo isn’t decoupled from exhaust speed. Hence my follow up question if anyone has attempted to plot power graphs of these engines?

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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bigblue wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:00 pm
Wouter wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:22 pm
N21 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:50 pm


Yup I know, but to what extent are Honda allowed to repair or service certain parts? Can they fit a new crankshaft, camshafts or pistons for example?
I don't know exactly which parts can be repaired, but Yamamoto was hoping they could fix parts so they wouldn't have to use a new PU. So some parts are allowed to fix.
I suppose they could canabalise a previous engine to get some parts, but no idea which, if any, parts are usable from an engine that has done it's intended life. Not many I'd guess, but that is a complete guess.
Actually Yamamoto said they could be running the 1st PU or the 2nd in Hungary for Verstappen depending on the damage assessment. Hungary isn't a power-sensitive track so they won't need to run the engine hard, and Max has been winning races with the power turned down on many occasions. The strength of the Honda PU is it's reliability and longevity, something that their plating had allowed them even toward the end of last year, as they had expected. As long as the PU checks out and is anomaly free in FP, it can be race worthy. Since there obviously was no performance upgrades for PU2 the first PU can be run optimally and win races. If PU2 is unfit to race, they can always introduce PU3 and use it sparingly. And if PU4 has to be introduced, then they can fully send it with that one.

Hoffman900
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Does anyone know or have an idea of how crankshaft thrust is controlled in these engines?

That’s where I’ve seen failures from hard shunts, including a counterweight into a bulkhead after the thrust plate shattered.

The other obvious place on these engines will be the block / cylinder due to being structural members. Worst case the block flexes or cam towers flex while everything is still spinning.

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:47 pm
Does anyone know or have an idea of how crankshaft thrust is controlled in these engines?

That’s where I’ve seen failures from hard shunts, including a counterweight into a bulkhead after the thrust plate shattered.

The other obvious place on these engines will be the block / cylinder due to being structural members. Worst case the block flexes or cam towers flex while everything is still spinning.
Maybe better asking in the Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software topic.
There are a lot of people with a huge knowledge about engines.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:47 pm
Does anyone know or have an idea of how crankshaft thrust is controlled in these engines?

That’s where I’ve seen failures from hard shunts, including a counterweight into a bulkhead after the thrust plate shattered.

The other obvious place on these engines will be the block / cylinder due to being structural members. Worst case the block flexes or cam towers flex while everything is still spinning.
Same way it's controlled in most engines. Thrust bearings. The block itself is likely fine. All the stuff around it is not, we'll know by Monday. Us readers that is.
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PhillipM
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I would imagine the block is probably okay, given they're pretty tough for taking loadings anyway, but it's whether it's nipped the crank or cams in the impact, and how much damage there is to any of the castings that attach the MGU-H, turbo pipes, loom, etc. Guess we'll find out but I wouldn't be surprised if they wrote it mainly off.

dans79
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PhillipM wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:29 pm
I would imagine the block is probably okay, given they're pretty tough for taking loadings anyway, but it's whether it's nipped the crank or cams in the impact, and how much damage there is to any of the castings that attach the MGU-H, turbo pipes, loom, etc. Guess we'll find out but I wouldn't be surprised if they wrote it mainly off.
with regards to the block itself, I would think the larger concern would be if any of the auxiliary mounting points have been damaged.
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godlameroso
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The engine and ancillaries are shrouded under a vanity cover for aero purposes and the crash didn't destroy the vanity cover.
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Hoffman900
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:53 pm
The engine and ancillaries are shrouded under a vanity cover for aero purposes and the crash didn't destroy the vanity cover.
Vanity covers aren’t usually the issue in a shunt.

It’s typically the sudden impact in a plane that usually stacks up the tolerances of things spinning very fast inside the engine that are usually the issue.

The example I gave above, the engine looked fine, except it was seized and had a bunch of axial crankshaft play. Dropping the pan told the whole story.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:25 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:53 pm
The engine and ancillaries are shrouded under a vanity cover for aero purposes and the crash didn't destroy the vanity cover.
Vanity covers aren’t usually the issue in a shunt.

It’s typically the sudden impact in a plane that usually stacks up the tolerances of things spinning very fast inside the engine that are usually the issue.

The example I gave above, the engine looked fine, except it was seized and had a bunch of axial crankshaft play. Dropping the pan told the whole story.
Everything on the outside (piping, couplings, wires, sensors) can be replaced. I expect because of the high minimum weight and it being a stressed member of the chassis, the crankcase itself is quite sturdy and should be able to hold all the bearings in place.

In motogp bikes gets tossed around a lot, and experience a lot of high G forces due to the light weight and so far, engines survive most crashes.