Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
dans79
dans79
393
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

.poz wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:28 pm
But you need a very capable ozone generator: at 12000 rpm with a turbo pressure of 3.5 bar a F1 engine use (1,6x 12000x3,5/4) 16.800l of air every minute or 280l of air per second
You need to adjust your math, as air is only ~20% oxygen at sea level, the other 80% is nitrogen, argon, and carbon dioxide etc.
173 101 99 7

Polite
Polite
20
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:36 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

.poz wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:28 pm

BTW Antonini (former Ferrari PR) wrote that Ferrari advantage came form hybrid
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 62846.html
"L’ho già detto ma repetita juvant, il vantaggio di potenza Ferrari non sarà facile da recuperare e/o metabolizzare per gli avversari. Ma fare polemiche striscianti non aiuta a colmare il divario e non è il modo più elegante di perdere."

"i told this before but repetita juvant (latin), the F. power advantage will not be easy to recover/digest for the others.
But making creeping controversy does not help to bridge the gap and is not the most elegant way of losing."

Amen :mrgreen:

.poz
.poz
32
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:44 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

dans79 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:12 pm
.poz wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:28 pm
But you need a very capable ozone generator: at 12000 rpm with a turbo pressure of 3.5 bar a F1 engine use (1,6x 12000x3,5/4) 16.800l of air every minute or 280l of air per second
You need to adjust your math, as air is only ~20% oxygen at sea level, the other 80% is nitrogen, argon, and carbon dioxide etc.
I wrote air, not oxygen :D

Anyway it's 56l of oxygen (O2) per second that can be replaced by 37,3l/s of ozone.

User avatar
izzy
70
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Polite wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:25 pm
"i told this before but repetita juvant (latin), the F. power advantage will not be easy to recover/digest for the others.
But making creeping controversy does not help to bridge the gap and is not the most elegant way of losing."
i'd say making it a controversy is generally a great way of bridging a gap in f1! How did the hydraulic accumulators that Red Bull and Mercedes were running in their suspensions get banned? That's right - Ferrari made a creeping controversy about it :D

FIA openly rely on teams to keep an eye on each other, after all. imo Ferrari have overdone it a bit and made the extra power too noticeable, so quite likely there'll be a clarification incoming for next year on the intercooler coolant front

.poz
.poz
32
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:44 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:53 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:20 pm
.... Because, sure you can get hydrogen out of oil, it's a hydrocarbon compound after all. But doing this changes the property of the oil severly over time. Because basically you turn it more and more into pure carbon.
hydrogen that's dissolved in oil isn't the hydrogen that's combined with carbon to be oil
so removing hydrogen that's dissolved in oil doesn't stop the oil being oil
Sorry, my fault, english is not my native language..

read as "if Ferrari have found a way to store big amount of hydrogen into oil..."

Polite
Polite
20
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:36 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

izzy wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:37 pm
Polite wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:25 pm
"i told this before but repetita juvant (latin), the F. power advantage will not be easy to recover/digest for the others.
But making creeping controversy does not help to bridge the gap and is not the most elegant way of losing."
i'd say making it a controversy is generally a great way of bridging a gap in f1! How did the hydraulic accumulators that Red Bull and Mercedes were running in their suspensions get banned? That's right - Ferrari made a creeping controversy about it :D

FIA openly rely on teams to keep an eye on each other, after all. imo Ferrari have overdone it a bit and made the extra power too noticeable, so quite likely there'll be a clarification incoming for next year on the intercooler coolant front
not really. Ferrari never told nothing to newspapers (and that was moveble aero).. and never gave tech relations to their partener teams to make them ask for controls by FIA. (Mercedes always uses ForceIndia for their protest =D> )

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
576
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Dr. Acula wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:47 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:53 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:20 pm
.... Because, sure you can get hydrogen out of oil, it's a hydrocarbon compound after all. But doing this changes the property of the oil severly over time. Because basically you turn it more and more into pure carbon.
hydrogen that's dissolved in oil isn't the hydrogen that's combined with carbon to be oil
so removing hydrogen that's dissolved in oil doesn't stop the oil being oil
Can you provide a number of how much hydrogen you can dissolve in a litre of oil at ambient pressure and temperature?
hydrogen has reverse solubility (in hydrocarbons eg 'oil')
ie its solubility increases with temperature (unlike eg the ready solubility of methane, ethane, butane, propane etc in 'oil')
try 'Phase Behavior of Hydrogen-light-Hydrocarbon Systems' by Benhom, Katz, & Williams
btw such solubility is important to enable hydrogenation processes (chemical reactions) for eg vehicle and human fuels

but yes if a bit of eg ozone or something can boost combustion efficiency or ITE by 2% that's 20 or 30 bhp

btw years ago I suggested dissolving hydrocarbon 'gases' in the fuel - cyclopentene ?, cyclopropene etc
this is of course now heavily restricted by the rules limiting fuel vapour pressure (and carbon atom count)

.poz
.poz
32
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:44 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

.poz wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:34 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:12 pm
.poz wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:28 pm
But you need a very capable ozone generator: at 12000 rpm with a turbo pressure of 3.5 bar a F1 engine use (1,6x 12000x3,5/4) 16.800l of air every minute or 280l of air per second
You need to adjust your math, as air is only ~20% oxygen at sea level, the other 80% is nitrogen, argon, and carbon dioxide etc.
I wrote air, not oxygen :D

Anyway it's 56l of oxygen (O2) per second that can be replaced by 37,3l/s of ozone.
AND THAT'S WRONG !

I divided by 4 (Four-stroke engine...) but actually you have intake in a single cylinder every 2 round of the crankshaft

so multiply everything by 2
Last edited by .poz on Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LM10
LM10
132
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

izzy wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:37 pm
Polite wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:25 pm
"i told this before but repetita juvant (latin), the F. power advantage will not be easy to recover/digest for the others.
But making creeping controversy does not help to bridge the gap and is not the most elegant way of losing."
i'd say making it a controversy is generally a great way of bridging a gap in f1! How did the hydraulic accumulators that Red Bull and Mercedes were running in their suspensions get banned? That's right - Ferrari made a creeping controversy about it :D

FIA openly rely on teams to keep an eye on each other, after all. imo Ferrari have overdone it a bit and made the extra power too noticeable, so quite likely there'll be a clarification incoming for next year on the intercooler coolant front
Ferrari’s power advantage has already been there since the first half of last season. There have been several investigations and clarifications with numerous sensors, but eventually they still kept their power advantage.

You sound like you’re sure about Ferrari cheating when telling that they made it too noticeable. Well, if they have more power, they will simply use it. I don’t know why they should keep it secret, if everything is legal.
But you kind of made a good point. It would be dumb for a team to show all their potential, if it’s done illegal. Ferrari’s power advantage seems quite heavy. So probably they’re sure about the legality of the stuff they do. Think about it.

User avatar
izzy
70
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

LM10 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:35 pm
Ferrari’s power advantage has already been there since the first half of last season. There have been several investigations and clarifications with numerous sensors, but eventually they still kept their power advantage.

You sound like you’re sure about Ferrari cheating when telling that they made it too noticeable. Well, if they have more power, they will simply use it. I don’t know why they should keep it secret, if everything is legal.
But you kind of made a good point. It would be dumb for a team to show all their potential, if it’s done illegal. Ferrari’s power advantage seems quite heavy. So probably they’re sure about the legality of the stuff they do. Think about it.
lol well I love that logic :) i am just guessing of course, going on what i see and read, imo it's most likely a combination of something clever with the batteries and also something clever with the intercooler fluid. isn't it the case that only Ferrari use oil and everybody else uses water and glycol? cos generally oil has a lower specific heat than water, by a factor of 2 or something, so it wouldn't be your first choice as a coolant, if all you innocently wanted to do with it was cool something

with the electric side I'm thinking it's legal and next year we'll see some copies of it, maybe

LM10
LM10
132
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

izzy wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:00 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:35 pm
Ferrari’s power advantage has already been there since the first half of last season. There have been several investigations and clarifications with numerous sensors, but eventually they still kept their power advantage.

You sound like you’re sure about Ferrari cheating when telling that they made it too noticeable. Well, if they have more power, they will simply use it. I don’t know why they should keep it secret, if everything is legal.
But you kind of made a good point. It would be dumb for a team to show all their potential, if it’s done illegal. Ferrari’s power advantage seems quite heavy. So probably they’re sure about the legality of the stuff they do. Think about it.
lol well I love that logic :) i am just guessing of course, going on what i see and read, imo it's most likely a combination of something clever with the batteries and also something clever with the intercooler fluid. isn't it the case that only Ferrari use oil and everybody else uses water and glycol? cos generally oil has a lower specific heat than water, by a factor of 2 or something, so it wouldn't be your first choice as a coolant, if all you innocently wanted to do with it was cool something

with the electric side I'm thinking it's legal and next year we'll see some copies of it, maybe
Not only I was sure about other teams copying whatever Ferrari has been doing, but almost 2 seasons gone and there still is no sign of similar PU behaviour from others. So, let's see what we're gonna witness next year.

LM10
LM10
132
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:59 pm
LM10 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:30 pm
Doesn’t Ferrari reach top speed before Mercedes, but can’t keep it as long as them? Wouldn’t that be a sign of some kind of an MGU-related advantage?
@henry suggested that Ferrari might harvest with the K and H simultaneously at the very end of the straight, that's why they drop of their top speed before braking while others don't. This would put energy at like 200kw into the ES, the twin battery setup might come in handy there.
This was discussed in greater detail some pages ago.
Alright! Thank you.

User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Adding Ozone as an additive might help combustion (limited benefit in a fuel limited formula), but any improvement will be close to zero if the O3 is made from the incoming O2. It is the same atoms of oxygen you are adding in each case.
You might be only gaining about 15% enthalpy compared to the incoming oxygen (the bonds in ozone are weaker), and that only for the small amount of oxygen that you convert.

The overall reaction is
3O2→2O3ΔH=286kJ
Note that 3 O=O bonds of oxygen are broken, and 4 O-O bonds of ozone are formed. If the bond energy of ozone is E, then:
E=(3∗498+286)kJ/4mol=445kJ/mol
In any case, ozone is relatively toxic for humans (would be OK after combustion, but not in the every likely case that excess oxygen is used) and something like this would likely be banned on the spot.
¡Puxa Esportin!

User avatar
izzy
70
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

LM10 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:21 pm
Not only I was sure about other teams copying whatever Ferrari has been doing, but almost 2 seasons gone and there still is no sign of similar PU behaviour from others. So, let's see what we're gonna witness next year.
istr Charlie last year saying "we know what they're doing and it's legal", about the twin batteries, so it must be very, very clever. Fair play, afaic. There's an FIA dc sensor between the batteries and the rest of the car, so getting round it legally deserves mega respect. but it will get copied then, won't it? staff change teams, a few must know about and they can have a huge promotion

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
576
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

dans79 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:12 pm
..... air is only ~20% oxygen at sea level, the other 80% is nitrogen, argon, and carbon dioxide etc.
after nitrogen and oxygen it's water vapour that's next - up to maybe 8% in Singapore

and afaik altitude doesn't affect the composition (except for the water vapour)