Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Bence
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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What we need is proper communication, information and transparency. What we get instead is shady, cloudy, foggy sentences in an almost "nonexistent case". And THIS is worrisome.

zokipirlo
zokipirlo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:23 pm
zokipirlo wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:50 pm
Jip wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:12 pm


Do you have an explanation then why Ferrari suddenly had a big pace deficit as soon as a TD was issued, and before that really had one of the best cars on the grid? And why would there be a settlement, if there was nothing wrong with the engine. If that was the case, the FIA wouldn't have settled anything and as you say, we wouldn't hear anything of it. So I really don't understand that people say Ferrari did nothing wrong, we still don't know what they exactly did wrong, but that's for the FIA to say.
Season was lost already. Second or third place doesn't matter. Maybe they just detune engine a little so other teams will shut up. Who knows.
And then overfuel by 4.4kg effectively putting the nail in the coffin. That makes no sense.
But if you remember correctly FIA was very late with that info. Binotto told that this was strange, because it was only on one car and only on this race, and they were monitored at least 10 times before. And because of a late call they didn't have time to recheck. FIA was under big pressure from Mercedes and RB (Honda) because Ferrari became too strong (power wise). Who knows what is behind curtains.

Slo Poke
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The fact of the matter is, is that it’s all very simple.
Ferrari and merc also, do not want other teams and worldwide manufacturers learning the true use of oil burning. I’m guessing here because, I for one, don’t know for sure whether or not oil burning has been outlawed this year? If it has then both the aforementioned teams will be down on power and as one astute observer has written on this forum, Ferrari it seems, appear to be using up rubber on the rear axle. If so I’m failing to be surprised.
You see oil burning was and is primarily (if it hasn’t been outlawed) a rubber preserver, which came/comes with the added benefit of extra power, as it alters the explosive detonation of the air-fuel mixture from a bang into a boom. A boom that applies explosive force onto the piston crown for a longer duration. By doing exactly that a very severe, tyre destroying pulse of torque is transformed from a source of rotational vibration to something far more acceptable to what amounts to delicate Pirelli rubber.
Ferrari and merc don’t want that made known, worldwide... oops!
What’s the betting das is outlawed come raceday?
The paddock doth work atrociously.

toraabe
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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At least Ferrari seems to be down on power. Actually good. Punishment to themself..

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turbof1
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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toraabe wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:39 am
At least Ferrari seems to be down on power. Actually good. Punishment to themself..
I want to use this message to highlight why this doesn't belong here: This is not a thread about morals or if a punishment is fitting. This is simply a topic about hardware and in such the whole scope of illegality here, is limited to determining if the hardware does not comply to to regulatory framework.

So please, let us do that. I admittingly agree that what the FIA did, is shady. But it will not get us more insights lamenting it.
#AeroFrodo

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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One and Only wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:01 pm
supermarine wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:13 pm
The annoying thing about the way this has been handled is that the really interesting technical details will never be known. I would love to know how Ferrari were doing what they were doing and how much extra fuel they were able to get into the engine than was legal as a result.
Does the 4.88kg anomaly in LeClerc's fuel load at Abu Dhabi tell us anything about the latter? Being really simplistic about it, if we assume they should have had about 100kg of fuel in the car does that mean Ferrari were using around 5% extra than they were admitting to? If so, was the performance advantage of the Ferrari PU we were seeing consistent with fuel flow rate of around 105kg/hr? Anyone have any thoughts?
I don't think there was ever more than 100kg of fuel in LeClerc's car. Aa far as I can remember discrepancy was from 90 to 95 or something like that. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can have more fuel in the car. You just can't burn more than 100kg/hr.

Questions for tech savvy people who know the rules: Is it legal/possible to get fuel mixture (very poor with fuel) into the combustion chamber, but not burn it during off throttle, then store it somewhere else and return to engine via turbo during throttle phase (early throttle phase)? It is not stored anywhere before injectors. What are the rules for fuel after it passes trough injectors? I have really basic knowledge of ICE and turbo so don't be harsh with replies :)
Any fuel that passes through the FFS have to end-up burned in combustion chamber and the maximum flow permitted is 100kg/h @ 10500rpm.

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Mr.G
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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LM10 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:43 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:29 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:20 pm


Let's consider this is the case. Why would it be of importance for other teams not to find out what Ferrari has been up to, once the loophole is closed by the FIA? The way I understand it is that Ferrari needed to tell the FIA their secrets because they still couldn't monitor what was going on - this way they will be able to close the loophole. But once this happened, how do Ferrari take advantage of it by keeping their secret to themselves and the FIA?
I think it would be to avoid 'prosecution' in case the FIA eventually :lol: figure out what was going on. It was a safety net for Ferrari and a reasonable one at that.
But the thing is that the FIA doesn't need to figure out what was going on when it's Ferrari telling them.
Let assume that Ferrari made this deal...

"We will tell you what are we doing (because it's loop hole and you will never find it without help). As it is loop hole we will use it during 2020. Because we are telling you, you will restrict it for 2021 but not sooner than end of the year (to avoid other to copy mid season)..."
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

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One and Only
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:58 am
One and Only wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:01 pm
supermarine wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:13 pm
The annoying thing about the way this has been handled is that the really interesting technical details will never be known. I would love to know how Ferrari were doing what they were doing and how much extra fuel they were able to get into the engine than was legal as a result.
Does the 4.88kg anomaly in LeClerc's fuel load at Abu Dhabi tell us anything about the latter? Being really simplistic about it, if we assume they should have had about 100kg of fuel in the car does that mean Ferrari were using around 5% extra than they were admitting to? If so, was the performance advantage of the Ferrari PU we were seeing consistent with fuel flow rate of around 105kg/hr? Anyone have any thoughts?
I don't think there was ever more than 100kg of fuel in LeClerc's car. Aa far as I can remember discrepancy was from 90 to 95 or something like that. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can have more fuel in the car. You just can't burn more than 100kg/hr.

Questions for tech savvy people who know the rules: Is it legal/possible to get fuel mixture (very poor with fuel) into the combustion chamber, but not burn it during off throttle, then store it somewhere else and return to engine via turbo during throttle phase (early throttle phase)? It is not stored anywhere before injectors. What are the rules for fuel after it passes trough injectors? I have really basic knowledge of ICE and turbo so don't be harsh with replies :)
Any fuel that passes through the FFS have to end-up burned in combustion chamber and the maximum flow permitted is 100kg/h @ 10500rpm.
Thanks for clarification. Do rules define when it has to end-up burned in combustion chamber? In both cases it will end-up there.
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

scarnegie96
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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One and Only wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:29 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:58 am
One and Only wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:01 pm

I don't think there was ever more than 100kg of fuel in LeClerc's car. Aa far as I can remember discrepancy was from 90 to 95 or something like that. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can have more fuel in the car. You just can't burn more than 100kg/hr.

Questions for tech savvy people who know the rules: Is it legal/possible to get fuel mixture (very poor with fuel) into the combustion chamber, but not burn it during off throttle, then store it somewhere else and return to engine via turbo during throttle phase (early throttle phase)? It is not stored anywhere before injectors. What are the rules for fuel after it passes trough injectors? I have really basic knowledge of ICE and turbo so don't be harsh with replies :)
Any fuel that passes through the FFS have to end-up burned in combustion chamber and the maximum flow permitted is 100kg/h @ 10500rpm.
Thanks for clarification. Do rules define when it has to end-up burned in combustion chamber? In both cases it will end-up there.
As far as I'm aware, the rules only forbid storing fuel past the fuel flow sensor.

Theres lots of discussion in the Honda PU thread about Honda combusting fuel in the exhaust to spin up the Turbine, simultaneaously lowering MGU-H use and ES depletion, whilst still keeping the Turbo spun up for anti-lag purposes and actually storing some of that energy through the H as the Turbine spins. Hence the loud backfire sounds heard in testing.

If the rules stated that fuel can only be burned within the combustion chamber then Honda's solution would be illegal surely.

3jawchuck
3jawchuck
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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scarnegie96 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:40 pm
One and Only wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:29 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:58 am
Any fuel that passes through the FFS have to end-up burned in combustion chamber and the maximum flow permitted is 100kg/h @ 10500rpm.
Thanks for clarification. Do rules define when it has to end-up burned in combustion chamber? In both cases it will end-up there.
...
If the rules stated that fuel can only be burned within the combustion chamber then Honda's solution would be illegal surely.
The rules don't state that fuel must be burned in the combustion chamber, only that all metered fuel must pass through the combustion chamber.

Schumix
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Location: On planet earth

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mr.G wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:00 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:43 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:29 pm


I think it would be to avoid 'prosecution' in case the FIA eventually :lol: figure out what was going on. It was a safety net for Ferrari and a reasonable one at that.
But the thing is that the FIA doesn't need to figure out what was going on when it's Ferrari telling them.
Let assume that Ferrari made this deal...

"We will tell you what are we doing (because it's loop hole and you will never find it without help). As it is loop hole we will use it during 2020. Because we are telling you, you will restrict it for 2021 but not sooner than end of the year (to avoid other to copy mid season)..."
I really prefer your understanding of the FIA press release. According to me, there is big political fight between the 3 top teams and the FIA.
I have a question for people that are shouting on the FIA: Where it is said that the FIA must communicate publicly or with the other teams on Ferrari's technical innovation or advantage so that other engine manufacturers can exploit it?

According to italian media, their 2020 engine concept is an upgrade of the one they were using for the 2019 championship. There are even rumours that they increased the power output by 15hp.
We will have the answers in Melbourne. We can't wait for that anymore...

bonjon1979
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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3jawchuck wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:15 pm
scarnegie96 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:40 pm
One and Only wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:29 pm

Thanks for clarification. Do rules define when it has to end-up burned in combustion chamber? In both cases it will end-up there.
...
If the rules stated that fuel can only be burned within the combustion chamber then Honda's solution would be illegal surely.
The rules don't state that fuel must be burned in the combustion chamber, only that all metered fuel must pass through the combustion chamber.

I thought the problem was with the discrepancy between the amount of fuel Ferrari said they had in the car and what was found to be the case. Which would obviously be a bit of a red flag. Because in theory, if they were cheating the fuel flow they would have to be fudging the numbers given to the FIA. For example, if ferrari said they fueled with 98 kg, the fuel flow sensor said there was 92kg burned but there was only 2kg of fuel left in the tank then you can see that something has gone on.
Last edited by bonjon1979 on Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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214270
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mr.G wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:00 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:43 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:29 pm


I think it would be to avoid 'prosecution' in case the FIA eventually :lol: figure out what was going on. It was a safety net for Ferrari and a reasonable one at that.
But the thing is that the FIA doesn't need to figure out what was going on when it's Ferrari telling them.
Let assume that Ferrari made this deal...

"We will tell you what are we doing (because it's loop hole and you will never find it without help). As it is loop hole we will use it during 2020. Because we are telling you, you will restrict it for 2021 but not sooner than end of the year (to avoid other to copy mid season)..."
You have not given a reason why the FIA are under this seemingly great motivation to get to the bottom of what Ferrari are doing. If they determine the Ferrari PU is legal then it’s legal and all discussions end. The FIA announce it, the championship commences - none of this is what happened.

Moreover it doesn’t explain the ‘fine’ that was handed out to Ferrari either.
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.

toraabe
toraabe
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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turbof1 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:46 am
toraabe wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:39 am
At least Ferrari seems to be down on power. Actually good. Punishment to themself..
I want to use this message to highlight why this doesn't belong here: This is not a thread about morals or if a punishment is fitting. This is simply a topic about hardware and in such the whole scope of illegality here, is limited to determining if the hardware does not comply to to regulatory framework.

So please, let us do that. I admittingly agree that what the FIA did, is shady. But it will not get us more insights lamenting it.
I just said what many apparently are thinking. Ok I got it.

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Mr.G
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Location: Slovakia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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214270 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:35 pm
Mr.G wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:00 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:43 pm


But the thing is that the FIA doesn't need to figure out what was going on when it's Ferrari telling them.
Let assume that Ferrari made this deal...

"We will tell you what are we doing (because it's loop hole and you will never find it without help). As it is loop hole we will use it during 2020. Because we are telling you, you will restrict it for 2021 but not sooner than end of the year (to avoid other to copy mid season)..."
You have not given a reason why the FIA are under this seemingly great motivation to get to the bottom of what Ferrari are doing. If they determine the Ferrari PU is legal then it’s legal and all discussions end. The FIA announce it, the championship commences - none of this is what happened.

Moreover it doesn’t explain the ‘fine’ that was handed out to Ferrari either.
At first it's not a fine (not proven)...
Well, assume that Ferrari are clever and realized this - "There will be new engine era. FIA is investigating our engine and never will find what's going on. How we can use this to our benefit? We will revel what's going on and offer help with new rules, therefore have early access/knowledge of the upcoming rule changes. If we will be clever and we offer our help (your fine) there may be a shot for shaping the rules a bit to our benefit... + all the stuff from the post before"
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts