Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
toraabe
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mr.G wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:36 pm
Polite wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:34 pm
news from Italy.

According to Leo Turrini, and many others, there was a whristleblower in Ferrari giving tech spec to an other team. Then the team gave those infos (under patent..) to the FIA per the protest: if Ferrari would have been claimed guilty, Ferrari could have taken legal action and win just because those infos (under patent) were given to a competitor violating the patent rules and not to the FIA itself.

So the agreement is aimed at protecting Ferrari patents and possible damages to the FIA, for violation of the patents themselves (Ferrari can act legally against FIA, the whristleblower, the team which have contacts to the whristleblower)

2007 McLaren anyone?
If true, this is what's usually called a twist :)
https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/03/04 ... ettlement/

toraabe
toraabe
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mr.G wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:36 pm
Polite wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:34 pm
news from Italy.

According to Leo Turrini, and many others, there was a whristleblower in Ferrari giving tech spec to an other team. Then the team gave those infos (under patent..) to the FIA per the protest: if Ferrari would have been claimed guilty, Ferrari could have taken legal action and win just because those infos (under patent) were given to a competitor violating the patent rules and not to the FIA itself.

So the agreement is aimed at protecting Ferrari patents and possible damages to the FIA, for violation of the patents themselves (Ferrari can act legally against FIA, the whristleblower, the team which have contacts to the whristleblower)

2007 McLaren anyone?
If true, this is what's usually called a twist :)
https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/03/04 ... ettlement/

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izzy
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Apparently Toto has written to all the non-Ferrari teams, calling for pressure to make FIA reveal what was actually going on! https://f1-insider.com/f1/ferrarigate-t ... des-deals/

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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This is where the fun begins

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turbof1
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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https://www.racefans.net/2020/03/04/sev ... ettlement/

This is far from over.

I am contemplating to split off the topic off the FIA/Ferrari settlement into a separate topic. We'll see how things evolve. Should legal action be taken, I think that would be the correct moment to split off.

EDIT: topic created. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28896

From now only technical/hardware aspects will be allowed here regarding the controversy
#AeroFrodo

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One and Only
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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scarnegie96 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:40 pm
One and Only wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:29 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:58 am


Any fuel that passes through the FFS have to end-up burned in combustion chamber and the maximum flow permitted is 100kg/h @ 10500rpm.
Thanks for clarification. Do rules define when it has to end-up burned in combustion chamber? In both cases it will end-up there.
As far as I'm aware, the rules only forbid storing fuel past the fuel flow sensor.

Theres lots of discussion in the Honda PU thread about Honda combusting fuel in the exhaust to spin up the Turbine, simultaneaously lowering MGU-H use and ES depletion, whilst still keeping the Turbo spun up for anti-lag purposes and actually storing some of that energy through the H as the Turbine spins. Hence the loud backfire sounds heard in testing.

If the rules stated that fuel can only be burned within the combustion chamber then Honda's solution would be illegal surely.
As @3jawchuck pointed out in theory it is possible to store fuel after combustion chamber if you don't burn it immediately ofcourse. Question is how could one implement such system?
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

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Mr.G
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I was thinking about the Ferrari "trick, this is just brainstorming, correct me if you have better ideas.

- they probably don't trick the FFS in such way it counts less, this would mean that they need always have more fuel and any random check pre or post-race would find it.
- they must have been under control more than one time during the season so the one time was probably a regular mistake.
- if they don't pass more fuel trough FFS, they probably found a way how to "legally store" the fuel (when lower demand) and burn it later.
- this is probably why FIA will add another FFS right before the engine, otherways the teams will still seak for ways how to "store" fuel even if it's forbidden.
- if there is a deal with FIA it is probably something really easy to do.

I also have an idea how to do this, but don't want to post it here as it's realy easy to do it...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

PowerandtheGlory
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mr.G wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:14 pm
I was thinking about the Ferrari "trick, this is just brainstorming, correct me if you have better ideas.

- they probably don't trick the FFS in such way it counts less, this would mean that they need always have more fuel and any random check pre or post-race would find it.
- they must have been under control more than one time during the season so the one time was probably a regular mistake.
- if they don't pass more fuel trough FFS, they probably found a way how to "legally store" the fuel (when lower demand) and burn it later.
- this is probably why FIA will add another FFS right before the engine, otherways the teams will still seak for ways how to "store" fuel even if it's forbidden.
- if there is a deal with FIA it is probably something really easy to do.

I also have an idea how to do this, but don't want to post it here as it's realy easy to do it...
I suppose you 'could' store fuel past the flow meter in an expansion tube or fuel line, that could expand during the race and then use an engine mode to feed more fuel into the engine for more power until the fuel 'pocket' had reduced back again - and then after the race the fuel line would return to normal size and the flow would never show more than the accepted amount? You could even do this at the start of the race by having some way of pumping fuel into the expansion line on the grid prior to start as they cars aren't checked, the FiA wouldn't know that fuel was being stored between the flow and the inlet manifold. how big or how much benefit you would gain in terms of laps i dont know.. but id assume you could build up a store then use this for a 5 lap burst and then go back down to another mode - useful for Quali - inlaps and outlaps and when overtaking...
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

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Mr.G
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:50 pm
Mr.G wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:14 pm
I was thinking about the Ferrari "trick, this is just brainstorming, correct me if you have better ideas.

- they probably don't trick the FFS in such way it counts less, this would mean that they need always have more fuel and any random check pre or post-race would find it.
- they must have been under control more than one time during the season so the one time was probably a regular mistake.
- if they don't pass more fuel trough FFS, they probably found a way how to "legally store" the fuel (when lower demand) and burn it later.
- this is probably why FIA will add another FFS right before the engine, otherways the teams will still seak for ways how to "store" fuel even if it's forbidden.
- if there is a deal with FIA it is probably something really easy to do.

I also have an idea how to do this, but don't want to post it here as it's realy easy to do it...
I suppose you 'could' store fuel past the flow meter in an expansion tube or fuel line, that could expand during the race and then use an engine mode to feed more fuel into the engine for more power until the fuel 'pocket' had reduced back again - and then after the race the fuel line would return to normal size and the flow would never show more than the accepted amount? You could even do this at the start of the race by having some way of pumping fuel into the expansion line on the grid prior to start as they cars aren't checked, the FiA wouldn't know that fuel was being stored between the flow and the inlet manifold. how big or how much benefit you would gain in terms of laps i dont know.. but id assume you could build up a store then use this for a 5 lap burst and then go back down to another mode - useful for Quali - inlaps and outlaps and when overtaking...
Exactly - you put control valve before ICE and when low demand you reduce the flow trough this valve but keep your fuel pump pressurized the fuel line (and expand) and then open the control valve when you need more fuel...

What's more I somewhere found that the rules will be changed that fuel line will be allowed to have only 2dl...

Now let's hope Mercedes don't find this as is freaking easy...

Image
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

PowerandtheGlory
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mr.G wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:53 pm
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:50 pm
Mr.G wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:14 pm
I was thinking about the Ferrari "trick, this is just brainstorming, correct me if you have better ideas.

- they probably don't trick the FFS in such way it counts less, this would mean that they need always have more fuel and any random check pre or post-race would find it.
- they must have been under control more than one time during the season so the one time was probably a regular mistake.
- if they don't pass more fuel trough FFS, they probably found a way how to "legally store" the fuel (when lower demand) and burn it later.
- this is probably why FIA will add another FFS right before the engine, otherways the teams will still seak for ways how to "store" fuel even if it's forbidden.
- if there is a deal with FIA it is probably something really easy to do.

I also have an idea how to do this, but don't want to post it here as it's realy easy to do it...
I suppose you 'could' store fuel past the flow meter in an expansion tube or fuel line, that could expand during the race and then use an engine mode to feed more fuel into the engine for more power until the fuel 'pocket' had reduced back again - and then after the race the fuel line would return to normal size and the flow would never show more than the accepted amount? You could even do this at the start of the race by having some way of pumping fuel into the expansion line on the grid prior to start as they cars aren't checked, the FiA wouldn't know that fuel was being stored between the flow and the inlet manifold. how big or how much benefit you would gain in terms of laps i dont know.. but id assume you could build up a store then use this for a 5 lap burst and then go back down to another mode - useful for Quali - inlaps and outlaps and when overtaking...
Exactly - you put control valve before ICE and when low demand you reduce the flow trough this valve but keep your fuel pump pressurized the fuel line (and expand) and then open the control valve when you need more fuel...

What's more I somewhere found that the rules will be changed that fuel line will be allowed to have only 2dl...

Now let's hope Mercedes don't find this as is freaking easy...

https://papermodelers.sk:443/download/i ... 88c0b75dfb
Would it also be the case that the 2 flow valves would need to be 'linked' somehow- so you could track the fuel going through at 'both times' -to confirm that there was no difference between 1 valve and the other?
I guess the teams will now need to go with my other 'mad professor idea' of using Electrolysis via the Hybrid Power train to turn the water in the driver's drink water reservoir into Hydrogen for a Power boost in the combustion....aka a hydorgen fuel cell... (ok i know, i know I'm being silly)

P.S. to Mercedes et.al...... from both of us...... Your welcome :lol:
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Accumulation of fuel is explicitly banned. This would be slam dunk disqualification so you are suggesting that the accumulation device is there but it is disguised or cannot be easily checked when the car is at a stand still.
In this case it would be that FIA cannot prove that it is there. Otherwise it would be a slam-dunk DQ again.

For fuel accumulation they could use Memory Metal.

The other way of cheating the flow meter is using a variable property fuel.

What piqued my interest in the letter is the mention of "Alternative Fuels."

Was Ferrari using a sort of fuel that changes density? or a type of fuel that changes its composition? Hmm.. this could explain why less fuel was left in the tank than expected.
... . almost. there . sTiLl.. WE...RisE. ..

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David1976
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mmm... Didn't Ferrari have experience of memory metal with flexible floors once upon a time?

The mind boggles!!

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nzjrs
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mr.G wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:53 pm
Now let's hope Mercedes don't find this as is freaking easy...
https://papermodelers.sk:443/download/i ... 88c0b75dfb
It's too trivial and so would have already been though of. Not to mention this sort of accumulation is explicitly not allowed and would presumably easy-ish to find. From the point of view of Ferrari's defense in the statement, I can't imagine valuable intellectual property in an expanding fuel line... (maybe memory metal is cool enough?).

From memory wasn't the first confiscation of Ferrari equipment the 'fuel system', around Austin, and then according to reports concerning this statement, further confiscations were made of more pieces up to and including a whole engine at or after the end of the season? To me this speaks to something quite integrated or more complex than this.

PowerandtheGlory
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:37 pm
Accumulation of fuel is explicitly banned. This would be slam dunk disqualification so you are suggesting that the accumulation device is there but it is disguised or cannot be easily checked when the car is at a stand still.
In this case it would be that FIA cannot prove that it is there. Otherwise it would be a slam-dunk DQ again.

For fuel accumulation they could use Memory Metal.

The other way of cheating the flow meter is using a variable property fuel.

What piqued my interest in the letter is the mention of "Alternative Fuels."

Was Ferrari using a sort of fuel that changes density? or a type of fuel that changes its composition? Hmm.. this could explain why less fuel was left in the tank than expected.
The only thing i can think of is maybe cooling the fuel using something on the car to give more thermal energy properties, a really cold fuel would be denser- you could push the same 'amount' of fuel but it would be more powerful 'for the same amount' of warm fuel. Maybe you could chargecool the fuel line, dropping its pressure and or even charge cool the pump itself for a gain.. other than that we are taking about chemical properties of the fuel itself and we need a chemist here to tell us about that stuff. Perhaps even introducing a magnetic field (really easy) around the fuel line to activate a property or something....can you pass electricity through fuel to charge ions in the fuel itself?? or can this be done by the maker beforehand..? hmmmmm
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

PowerandtheGlory
PowerandtheGlory
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:11 pm
Mr.G wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:53 pm
Now let's hope Mercedes don't find this as is freaking easy...
https://papermodelers.sk:443/download/i ... 88c0b75dfb
It's too trivial and so would have already been though of. Not to mention this sort of accumulation is explicitly not allowed and would presumably easy-ish to find. From the point of view of Ferrari's defense in the statement, I can't imagine valuable intellectual property in an expanding fuel line... (maybe memory metal is cool enough?).

From memory wasn't the first confiscation of Ferrari equipment the 'fuel system', around Austin, and then according to reports concerning this statement, further confiscations were made of more pieces up to and including a whole engine at or after the end of the season? To me this speaks to something quite integrated or more complex than this.
The best cheats or gimmicks in motorsport sometimes don't need to be complex, just subtle enough to be considered designs that exploit a rule... The double diffuser - which needed a hole to put the external starter of the car in the back- total co-incidence or design... its way more subtle than the good old days of filling up your roll cage with nitrous in Group B rallying.... ahhhh those were the days..
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn