2021 Engine thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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djos
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Bill wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:33 pm
Why single out only those two the whole economy not just car industry will be affected including survival of small teams like Williams.
Honda and Nissan both suffered extreme brain damage in the GFC and haven’t recovered.

Their vehicles are not innovative or interesting. Both brands are being eaten alive by Mazda and Hyundai/Kia.

I used to love Honda’s but I wouldn’t touch one with a 50ft pole these days, same goes for Nissan.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

MatsNorway
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Biofuel can also be something closer to biodiesel. It could give a bump in efficiency at the cost of reducing the octane number.

As for development i hope for lower revs to increase efficiency as well as improving the sound.
There is no need to make F1 engines more complicated. Fuel flow should have been completely flat from day one. But that is a big jump now. So lowering fuel flow to peak at 9000-9500 is a start.

Lowering the weight of the engine a bit is fine, as long as the car weight follows too. Otherwise you get even longer cars.
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Pyrone89
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Please remind me, what is a 2021 engine? Weren't those plans scrapped to prevent extra costs and a new engine spending war especially as manufacturers are already complaining let alone in this new economic climate.
Best WDC-drivers in F1 history:
Schumacher, Senna, Fangio

Driving a dominant car in the most dominant team ever, helped by favorable rule changes, against subtop teammates does not make you the GOAT (but still superb). It just helps you inflate/skew your stats.

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Pyrone89
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Bill wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:33 pm
Why single out only those two the whole economy not just car industry will be affected including survival of small teams like Williams.
Because the rich will always stay rich. And those are the market for Ferrari. Mercedes is in between, catering for the higher middle class. Which also tend to survive crises better than lower income classes.
Best WDC-drivers in F1 history:
Schumacher, Senna, Fangio

Driving a dominant car in the most dominant team ever, helped by favorable rule changes, against subtop teammates does not make you the GOAT (but still superb). It just helps you inflate/skew your stats.

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Put F1 tech in road cars. Im sure a 2cyl version of these engines could really make an impact on marketshare.

michl420
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Just read the Headline for this threat, as today it is announced the engine got 5kg heavier. (what a wonderful modern world) #-o

ACRO
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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its all getting more and more a FIA homologated marketing show and not what formula 1 stood for at birth and decades later : an open class .

the current engines are imo the most boring in f1 history , not the heart of the car anymore but just a part to get the job done.

kasio
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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ACRO wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:36 pm
its all getting more and more a FIA homologated marketing show and not what formula 1 stood for at birth and decades later : an open class .

the current engines are imo the most boring in f1 history , not the heart of the car anymore but just a part to get the job done.
boring? i call counting horses or revs boring - zero challege. street cars have more. 50% thermodynamic efficiency is not boring - its challenging its inovative its exciting.

ACRO
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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efficiency is great but with everything on the engine regulated better let fia build a spec engine for everyone and put a mercedes or ferrari sticker on it to please the fans .

formula1 was not born as a highly regulated spec series i think .

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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ACRO wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:36 pm
its all getting more and more a FIA homologated marketing show and not what formula 1 stood for at birth and decades later : an open class .

the current engines are imo the most boring in f1 history , not the heart of the car anymore but just a part to get the job done.
etusch wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:41 am
I think Honda well aware who will decide next formula and who has affect on it more than Honda. It will always fit with Western/europian style more than Honda.
Why not use Super Formula / 2020 DTM, 2.0L 4-cylinder units (600hp) plus a substantial plug-in hybrid system (300hp)?

That would give a minimum of five manufacturers: Audi, BMW, Toyota, Honda and Nissan ("Renault")! Plus, of course, Ferrari and Mercedes would build one. That would make seven engine makes! :D

To limit costs, homologation with cumulative power limits for combustion & electric could be used, to ensure all units perform about the same... in order to keep all the manufacturers happy about not needing expensive on-going development.
ACRO wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:15 pm
formula1 was not born as a highly regulated spec series i think .
Manufacturers like BMW or Porsche are not interested in expensive open competition. Balance-of-performance classes like LMDh suits manufacturers! :)

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:49 am
ACRO wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:36 pm
its all getting more and more a FIA homologated marketing show and not what formula 1 stood for at birth and decades later : an open class .

the current engines are imo the most boring in f1 history , not the heart of the car anymore but just a part to get the job done.
etusch wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:41 am
I think Honda well aware who will decide next formula and who has affect on it more than Honda. It will always fit with Western/europian style more than Honda.
Why not use Super Formula / 2020 DTM, 2.0L 4-cylinder units (600hp) plus a substantial plug-in hybrid system (300hp)?

That would give a minimum of five manufacturers: Audi, BMW, Toyota, Honda and Nissan ("Renault")! Plus, of course, Ferrari and Mercedes would build one. That would make seven engine makes! :D

To limit costs, homologation with cumulative power limits for combustion & electric could be used, to ensure all units perform about the same... in order to keep all the manufacturers happy about not needing expensive on-going development.
ACRO wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:15 pm
formula1 was not born as a highly regulated spec series i think .
Manufacturers like BMW or Porsche are not interested in expensive open competition. Balance-of-performance classes like LMDh suits manufacturers! :)
This could see a return to the 'Garagesta' style F1 which I enjoyed.
It would really be down to the race teams to get sorted then, not rely on having the most powerful engine.
'Cars for people who cannot make engines' to misquote a pioneer of F1
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Xwang
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:49 am
ACRO wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:36 pm
its all getting more and more a FIA homologated marketing show and not what formula 1 stood for at birth and decades later : an open class .

the current engines are imo the most boring in f1 history , not the heart of the car anymore but just a part to get the job done.
etusch wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:41 am
I think Honda well aware who will decide next formula and who has affect on it more than Honda. It will always fit with Western/europian style more than Honda.
Why not use Super Formula / 2020 DTM, 2.0L 4-cylinder units (600hp) plus a substantial plug-in hybrid system (300hp)?

That would give a minimum of five manufacturers: Audi, BMW, Toyota, Honda and Nissan ("Renault")! Plus, of course, Ferrari and Mercedes would build one. That would make seven engine makes! :D

To limit costs, homologation with cumulative power limits for combustion & electric could be used, to ensure all units perform about the same... in order to keep all the manufacturers happy about not needing expensive on-going development.
ACRO wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:15 pm
formula1 was not born as a highly regulated spec series i think .
Manufacturers like BMW or Porsche are not interested in expensive open competition. Balance-of-performance classes like LMDh suits manufacturers! :)
IMHO whichever engine formula is applied to F1 will bring to an escalation with time of costs and power or better performance well beyond the intended limits. This is due by the fact that it is far more important to gain an technical advantage in F1 than in other series because F1 is (at least perceived as) the pinnacle of motor sport worldwide from the point of view of global audience. From that derives the increase in budgets and performance.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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I don’t believe any of the big manufacturers is interested in a hightech combustion engine and I guess that the best strategy is to split the new powerunit in a simple and restricted ICE, combined with a bigger MGU-K.

Also replace the MGU-H with either a (Fia standard) exhaust gas generator OR let the teams develop a front brake recovery system.

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dave kumar
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:02 pm
I don’t believe any of the big manufacturers is interested in a hightech combustion engine and I guess that the best strategy is to split the new powerunit in a simple and restricted ICE, combined with a bigger MGU-K.

Also replace the MGU-H with either a (Fia standard) exhaust gas generator OR let the teams develop a front brake recovery system.
Gary Anderson makes a good argument for this idea here (but you need to scroll half-way down the article to get to it).
https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-and ... SocialSnap
As you can see, I have separated the actual engine requirements from the electrical requirements. This to allow what we might call privateer engine manufacturers to potentially get involved again in the manufacture of the actual engine part of the equation. With Honda walking away, the day is coming when F1 might just need the Judds, Harts, Ilmors, Cosworths and Zyteks of old again.

Returning to the power unit, by separating the engine and the electrical energy side of things, this would also allow specialists in the electrical energy recovery systems to get involved.

Currently, it’s all part of the power unit but by doing it this way it means you can have two sets of specialists involved and with that brings two sets of potential investment, also it means you can tinker regulation wise with either the engine energy or electrical energy separately, they are not as integrated so small changes won’t have such a huge concept consequence.
I think that the key part here is separating the electrical and combustion systems so that they can be independently designed and sourced. Part of the problem with the current engine formula is that changes to one part of the PU has knock-on effects in other parts to optimise the design (eg. optimal turbo size is dependent on a whole host of factors). If we could decouple these systems so they can be optimised independently of each other, then you would greatly simplify the design process and thus costs.
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saviour stivala
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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But still the individual optimization of each power system will finally have to be optimized all together as a power unit.