Oil as fuel

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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zonk
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basti313
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hardingfv32 wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:15 pm
We still do not know how these only vent/vapor system provide their benefit after the oil mist is in the intake system.
The oil mist is simply burned. The power in Q is limited by the limited fuel flow and additional stuff to burn means more power. This has nothing to do with lubrication.
hardingfv32 wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:15 pm
If there was some kind of chemical not common to motor oil beginning used the FIA could have banned it and similar substances form the oil's composition.
I would simply increase the number of light hydrocarbons. They give a nice, well burning mist and are common in motor oil. Nothing to do against this.
The oil is anyway too complicated to control. The only way to control the abuse of the oil is to limit the oil consumption and to ban valves for crankcase breather abuse.
I think it is a very good rule change, but I do not understand why it is applied so late. A mid-season ban would have been easily doable.

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ClarkBT11
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hardingfv32 wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:15 pm
If there was some kind of chemical not common to motor oil beginning used the FIA could have banned it and similar substances form the oil's composition.
FIA has now stated explicitly that the use of chemicals in oil that could help improve combustion is not allowed.

Stargazer
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I just read a speculation on one of news sites that Ferrari uses 2 oil tanks filled with different oil. New oil tank is the one appeared in the floor of their 2017 car. And that the second tank has a special oil for the "oil burn" purpose. It's also stated that the latest 2017 regulation changes in this area were likely caused by Merc's request to FIA aimed at trying to slow down their rivals.

supermarine
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Stargazer wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:21 pm
I just read a speculation on one of news sites that Ferrari uses 2 oil tanks filled with different oil. New oil tank is the one appeared in the floor of their 2017 car. And that the second tank has a special oil for the "oil burn" purpose. It's also stated that the latest 2017 regulation changes in this area were likely caused by Merc's request to FIA aimed at trying to slow down their rivals.
I just watched Ted's Notebook and it sounds like Ferrari did indeed have a second tank with a different type of oil that would combust well.

hardingfv32
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1) Name a chemical that would make a good fuel AND work as a lubricant? The latest lubricants have very high combustion temperatures. As an example they can make it through a CAT without lighting off.

2) Current lubricants provide a big reduction in friction…increase in power. It is going to take a lot of combustion energy to make-up for any loss friction reduction from an inferior lubricant. In other words this is a compromise.

3) Exactly how would you use a second tank of oil? Do you think they can just change oil formulations on the run?

Brian

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Phil
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AMuS thinks this may explainwhy Ferrari was so quick on the straights in Canada and why here they seem to be lacking a bit...
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supermarine
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hardingfv32 wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:30 am
1) Name a chemical that would make a good fuel AND work as a lubricant? The latest lubricants have very high combustion temperatures. As an example they can make it through a CAT without lighting off.

2) Current lubricants provide a big reduction in friction…increase in power. It is going to take a lot of combustion energy to make-up for any loss friction reduction from an inferior lubricant. In other words this is a compromise.

3) Exactly how would you use a second tank of oil? Do you think they can just change oil formulations on the run?

Brian
I think the point is that the second tank contained 'lubricant' that was engineered to be useful as fuel. If you look at the wording of the technical clarification it seems pretty clear what it is designed to prohibit. These clarifications do not just come from nowhere, unless something was going on the FIA would not bother to do it.

Surely it should be possible to create a light lubricant that would evaporate upon introduction to the crankcase and flow out through the breather into the intake plenum. I was always sceptical about the value of oil burning with these very complicated lean burning TJI engines but if it is possible to use two different types of oil then it makes sense. The second oil tank is a de facto second fuel tank which is not subject to the fuel flow regs.

hardingfv32
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Yes.. I agree

The viscosity of the oil is as low as it can possibly be to reduce friction and still maintain reliability. Compromising this for a short term power increase does not seem like a good compromise. It would be a net reduction of the power found under the curve for a session.

How about the second source of oil never actual mixes with the main oil supply. Say that the second source is used to cool the pistons. It could be very volatile and vaporize on contact with the piston. Never has the opportunity to mix with the regular lubricant supply. The vapor is exhausted into the intake. You could use a real fuel for this second source.

The calibration of such a system would seem very complicated.

Brian

NL_Fer
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Remember the previous years where Mercedes would burn a big cloud of smoke, during or after then warmup lap.

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godlameroso
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Re: Oil as fuel

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hardingfv32 wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:30 am
1) Name a chemical that would make a good fuel AND work as a lubricant? The latest lubricants have very high combustion temperatures. As an example they can make it through a CAT without lighting off.

2) Current lubricants provide a big reduction in friction…increase in power. It is going to take a lot of combustion energy to make-up for any loss friction reduction from an inferior lubricant. In other words this is a compromise.

3) Exactly how would you use a second tank of oil? Do you think they can just change oil formulations on the run?

Brian
Maybe the oil works as a way to reduce knocking allowing more aggressive engine settings for longer. Or maybe the oil is burned in the exhaust for extra turbine power.
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godlameroso
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NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:52 pm
Remember the previous years where Mercedes would burn a big cloud of smoke, during or after then warmup lap.
They still do, that Facts Only guy said it's because of a turbo seal issue.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

ojlopez
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What if they have a 2 part oil, where the light burnable part separates from the thick lubricant part and floats on top of it so it can be easily scavenged and sent into combustion chamber?

irsq4
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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:42 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:52 pm
Remember the previous years where Mercedes would burn a big cloud of smoke, during or after then warmup lap.
They still do, that Facts Only guy said it's because of a turbo seal issue.
Smart way to send "combustion beneficial" oil ingredients into engine intake.
:mrgreen:

langwadt
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ojlopez wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:16 pm
What if they have a 2 part oil, where the light burnable part separates from the thick lubricant part and floats on top of it so it can be easily scavenged and sent into combustion chamber?
or use the oil pump as centrifuge to separate them