FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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yelistener
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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TimW wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:58 pm
I think it way too early to draw any conclusions on the impact of the single mode. Only thing we can conclude is that Red Bull is poor in Monza.

What surprised me is that there was still a big improvement from Q1 to Q2, ~0.4s for the top 10. From Q2 to Q3 there was no improvement.
Can so much (and consistent) lap time be attributed to improving track conditions, and 'getting the hang of it'?
Q1 is actually at the same pace as Q2&3. Mercedes used mediums in Q1 that's why they're about 0.7s slower than Q2&3.

Getting a tow is crucial for non-Mercedes, but Q1 was too packed up, the cars in the back were more or less affected by that. Q2&3 had less cars so they could find a good position to maximize the tow.

Mercedes ran in front (bottas didn't even had a tow), so their laptimes were the most relevant.

In non-tow-quali tracks like Nurburgring we will see closer Q1 comparing to Q2&3 from those middle teams.

carisi2k
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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I agree it is too early to judge whether or not these new measures will make a difference. What we do know is that Monza has always been Red Bull's worst Grand Prix of the year (by quite a margin) and one of Mercedes strongest. What I will say is that Carlos Sainz has gained 3 tenths on the Mercs 2019 vs 2020 in Q3 at Monza.

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Mudflap
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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henry wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:16 am

There are two ways of achieving reliability. Build things strong enough such that the occasional departures above the normal load regime can be tolerated or build things such that the departures from the norm are less frequent. I wonder if Mercedes strength lies in the latter. A much more consistent combustion process from rev to rev and across cylinders. That form of reliability is more difficult to chase than the other.

I think your proposal for regulation is interesting. Assuming they do run durability only sessions then no doubt they will have such data. If the reliability comes from combustion stability I’m not sure it would help those who can’t achieve it.
Yes, it does make sense now that you mention it!
It probably is a combination of combustion stability and mechanical strength.

I've pulled the graph below from a Mahle paper "Spark Ignition and Pre-Chamber Turbulent Jet
Ignition Combustion Visualization" which shows that at very lean mixtures the IMEP coefficient of variance increases exponentially. At the same time, the fatigue lives of components subjected to combustion loads also decrease dramatically (following a stress-life curve, which is typically a power law trend with a negative exponent).

No wonder the qualy modes produce extreme damage in terms of fatigue and wear accumulation.
The implications are that teams who have mastered this very fine balance between combustion stability and durability will benefit greatly since for a modest decrease in output the combustion loads and their variability will decrease while durability should increase drastically.

In terms of what team can do differently to reduce the COV of IMEP we can only speculate but it is normally a function of combustion chamber design, charge motion, spark advance, compression ratio, lambda and fuel injection regime/ targeting.

Regardless of engine mode bans, the advantages of a lower COV will translate into performance and/or durability benefits.

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siskue2005
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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The race showed that the mode ban has actually killed the racing just like i said before in the thread

The race can be divided in to 2 phases

before SC
After the first lap, there was no overtaking at all, this was at the start of the race
Image
and this just before the Safety car
Image

And this after the restart after Lewis and Gio took their penalty, apart from Raikonnen falling like a stone and Lewis blasting through the field, no one else overtook anyone
Lap 31
Image

Race end
Image

I am really concerned, it is like going back to 2009s with no KERS and no DRS days

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Moore77
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Moore77 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:56 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:42 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:53 pm
Let me clarify. I am of the belief that, Williams has been using the PU on their car in more aggressive modes than Mercedes in the past races. Because Mercedes used to disappear in a couple of laps in races, they always used to turn down their engines and didn't really expose their cooling package.

Whereas Williams and Racing Points were fighting for positions in races and must have been using more aggressive engine modes to retain positions OR to try and gain a position or two. If they have been doing that, then their cooling packages must have been good enough to run the PU in more aggressive manner than that of Mercedes. In fact, this must be more a challenge for Mercedes than their customers. May be that is why Mercedes was trialing two different engine covers in practice with different cooling outlets?
i dont think Merc allows their customers to run in higher mode than what they prescribed.
They cant run mode aggressive modes, the modes and number of laps they are allowed to do that are controlled by mercedes
Is there some statement from Mercedes, stating the same. It would help if you post that. Just curious to know. All I have heard over the last few years is, the customer teams saying, Mercedes has strengthened the more powerful modes so that they can run them longer in races.

It is possible that Mercedes doesn't use them so much due to the gap they open at the front and cruise, whereas the customer teams might have to use to full extent, even if it falls under the guidance values of Mercedes, which Mercedes themselves doesn't go to. On that basis I am saying, their cooling packages must be holding up well to use those aggressive modes longer (as long as Mercedes guidance allows, but Mercedes doesn't use themselves that long).
I wasn't off the mark when I said maybe Mercedes would have cooling issues than their customers.
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siskue2005
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Moore77 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:20 am
Moore77 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:56 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:42 pm

i dont think Merc allows their customers to run in higher mode than what they prescribed.
They cant run mode aggressive modes, the modes and number of laps they are allowed to do that are controlled by mercedes
Is there some statement from Mercedes, stating the same. It would help if you post that. Just curious to know. All I have heard over the last few years is, the customer teams saying, Mercedes has strengthened the more powerful modes so that they can run them longer in races.

It is possible that Mercedes doesn't use them so much due to the gap they open at the front and cruise, whereas the customer teams might have to use to full extent, even if it falls under the guidance values of Mercedes, which Mercedes themselves doesn't go to. On that basis I am saying, their cooling packages must be holding up well to use those aggressive modes longer (as long as Mercedes guidance allows, but Mercedes doesn't use themselves that long).
I wasn't off the mark when I said maybe Mercedes would have cooling issues than their customers.
Honda also had cooling issue
The cooling issue was mostly for Bottas

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Moore77
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:50 am
Moore77 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:20 am
Moore77 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:56 pm
Is there some statement from Mercedes, stating the same. It would help if you post that. Just curious to know. All I have heard over the last few years is, the customer teams saying, Mercedes has strengthened the more powerful modes so that they can run them longer in races.

It is possible that Mercedes doesn't use them so much due to the gap they open at the front and cruise, whereas the customer teams might have to use to full extent, even if it falls under the guidance values of Mercedes, which Mercedes themselves doesn't go to. On that basis I am saying, their cooling packages must be holding up well to use those aggressive modes longer (as long as Mercedes guidance allows, but Mercedes doesn't use themselves that long).
I wasn't off the mark when I said maybe Mercedes would have cooling issues than their customers.
Honda also had cooling issue
The cooling issue was mostly for Bottas
Please follow the discussion thread. This was not about Honda Vs Mercedes.
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michl420
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Would it be interesting for the future to have a bigger batterie capacity to use the batterie more tactical? Let's say 3 laps before and 3 laps after pit stop use way more ES to make an undercut. I know 4 MJ/lap but no charging at the end of straight.

Tzk
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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michl420 wrote: I know 4 MJ/lap but no charging at the end of straight.
Afaik they can use more than 4MJ, but the difference between the lowest and highest charging state is 4MJ. So you could use 8MJ per lap if you manage to fully charge the battery twice. Still the powerlimit of the mgu-k applies.

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henry
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Tzk wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:41 pm
michl420 wrote: I know 4 MJ/lap but no charging at the end of straight.
Afaik they can use more than 4MJ, but the difference between the lowest and highest charging state is 4MJ. So you could use 8MJ per lap if you manage to fully charge the battery twice. Still the powerlimit of the mgu-k applies.
You can only use 4MJ to the MGU-K from the ES. If you want to use more than 4MJ from the ES you have to send it to the MGU-H. Either to drive the compressor, or possibly, though it’s never been reported, by doing the reverse of Honda’s “extra harvest”, sending energy to the K via the H using the H assembly as a kinetic store.
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Xwang
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Today Wolf starts complaining about the one engine map rule:
"We always said that, you create one power mode for the whole race means that you haven't got the extra spice to overtake," Wolff said.

"You haven't got the extra modes that you may decide or not to deploy in the race to overtake, and that is valid for all the small teams as for the big teams.

"I think that the race is a consequence of that decision."
(https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... n=widget-1)

but some weeks ago he used to say that they would have had more power at race:
“I think we don’t lack performance on Saturdays. We had until now quite a margin. We struggled in some of the races where we were quite limited in powerful engine modes, and if F1 were to ban in-season certain power unit modes, then I think it will actually help us in the race.

“If you can avoid damaging your power unit in those few qualifying laps that you have available, in Q3 and then the odd lap in the race, the damage metrics goes down dramatically.

“So five laps of quali mode not being done gives us 25 laps of more performance in the race, and that is something we believe will give us more performance.

“You must take into effect even if it may hurt us more in qualifying, which I’m not sure, and it’s a couple of tenths, then it will hurt all the others in the same way.

“But for us, we are always very marginal on what we can extract from the power unit, and if we were to be limited in qualifying modes, then well, we will be stronger in the race.”
(https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... f/4860037/)
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

SmallSoldier
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Xwang wrote:Today Wolf starts complaining about the one engine map rule:
"We always said that, you create one power mode for the whole race means that you haven't got the extra spice to overtake," Wolff said.

"You haven't got the extra modes that you may decide or not to deploy in the race to overtake, and that is valid for all the small teams as for the big teams.

"I think that the race is a consequence of that decision."
(https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... n=widget-1)

but some weeks ago he used to say that they would have had more power at race:
“I think we don’t lack performance on Saturdays. We had until now quite a margin. We struggled in some of the races where we were quite limited in powerful engine modes, and if F1 were to ban in-season certain power unit modes, then I think it will actually help us in the race.

“If you can avoid damaging your power unit in those few qualifying laps that you have available, in Q3 and then the odd lap in the race, the damage metrics goes down dramatically.

“So five laps of quali mode not being done gives us 25 laps of more performance in the race, and that is something we believe will give us more performance.

“You must take into effect even if it may hurt us more in qualifying, which I’m not sure, and it’s a couple of tenths, then it will hurt all the others in the same way.

“But for us, we are always very marginal on what we can extract from the power unit, and if we were to be limited in qualifying modes, then well, we will be stronger in the race.”
(https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... f/4860037/)
I don’t think he contradicts himself... They were stronger in the race (Hamilton’s gap to Sainz was huge before the first safety car)... Hamilton also managed to carve his way through the field after been 23 seconds behind the whole grid with roughly half the race to go, to finish 7th after that shows how strong the Mercedes were.

The problem is that Monza is a very special track and not one were is very easy to overtake even with DRS, with teams using so low profile rear wings, the effect of the DRS is greatly reduced and unless you are not only very close, but with a better run out of parabolica than the car in front of you, it’s very hard to make up 8-9 tenths in the straight alone to make the overtake (also... Most often than not, the car in front has the benefit of the tow, further reducing the impact of DRS).

If Bottas wouldn’t have had such a bad start, both Merc’s would have probably drove into the distance.


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siskue2005
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Xwang wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:07 pm
“So five laps of quali mode not being done gives us 25 laps of more performance in the race, and that is something we believe will give us more performance.

“You must take into effect even if it may hurt us more in qualifying, which I’m not sure, and it’s a couple of tenths, then it will hurt all the others in the same way.
Just imagine the highest mode is start 2 and lowest mode as strat 6

If they do qualy with strat 2 and race with strat 4 or 5

So if they cant run strat 2 in qualy then they can do strat 3 or 4 for qualy and race
Xwang wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:07 pm
Today Wolf starts complaining about the one engine map rule:
"We always said that, you create one power mode for the whole race means that you haven't got the extra spice to overtake," Wolff said.

"You haven't got the extra modes that you may decide or not to deploy in the race to overtake, and that is valid for all the small teams as for the big teams.

"I think that the race is a consequence of that decision."
So coming to overtaking or hunting down others or following someone close until DRS zone to overtake
They are stuck in strat 3 or 4 , the cant change it at all, and similarly all teams are stuck in the same mode and cant do anything about overtaking.

It was evidenced in Monza race, where everyone were stuck in the DRS train and nobody could close up anyone, not even Lewis. He took two laps in DRS zone to overtake Albon out of the first chicane. Same with everyone, just check my previous post > viewtopic.php?p=925334#p925334

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Mudflap
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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They've outqualified their closest competitor by 0.8s or so and then went on to race with the same engine settings.
Where is the contradiction ?
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El Scorchio
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Xwang wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:07 pm
Today Wolf starts complaining about the one engine map rule:
"We always said that, you create one power mode for the whole race means that you haven't got the extra spice to overtake," Wolff said.

"You haven't got the extra modes that you may decide or not to deploy in the race to overtake, and that is valid for all the small teams as for the big teams.

"I think that the race is a consequence of that decision."
(https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... n=widget-1)

but some weeks ago he used to say that they would have had more power at race:
“I think we don’t lack performance on Saturdays. We had until now quite a margin. We struggled in some of the races where we were quite limited in powerful engine modes, and if F1 were to ban in-season certain power unit modes, then I think it will actually help us in the race.

“If you can avoid damaging your power unit in those few qualifying laps that you have available, in Q3 and then the odd lap in the race, the damage metrics goes down dramatically.

“So five laps of quali mode not being done gives us 25 laps of more performance in the race, and that is something we believe will give us more performance.

“You must take into effect even if it may hurt us more in qualifying, which I’m not sure, and it’s a couple of tenths, then it will hurt all the others in the same way.

“But for us, we are always very marginal on what we can extract from the power unit, and if we were to be limited in qualifying modes, then well, we will be stronger in the race.”
(https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... f/4860037/)
He doesn't say he was talking specifically about his cars not being able to overtake. There will be a net gain in race trim for them from this move. I imagine he was also talking about the fact barely anyone except Hamilton overtook anyone at all on track.

The new rule might have just made it even harder to pass other cars. Probably not a problem for his team, but potentially a big one for anyone hoping for any excitement rather than a train of cars unable to navigate each other.