FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Alexf1
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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I thought only ICE modes were going to be fixed as of Italy.

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henry
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:09 pm
[
My opinion is that all manufacturers can achieve very similar peak power figures, however the main difference is in how long the engine can run for in those conditions without the risk of failure. As such any so called reliability update is inherently a performance update. This was not a problem before when engine development was unlimited - it only became an issue when the restrictions were implemented on quite a short notice. In this case the TD related to qualy modes is a patch aimed at closing a loophole created by the newly introduced regulations restricting the PU development.

Unfortunately I don't believe this recent modes ban fully addresses the issue since there are still opportunities for teams to run the engine beyond its durability envelope. In my view FIA should ask manufacturers to provide histograms of cylinder pressure, engine speed and coolant temperature for the duty cycles used to validate engine durability on the dyno. PU usage at the track should then be monitored and not allowed to exceed the "homologated" duty cycle.
There are two ways of achieving reliability. Build things strong enough such that the occasional departures above the normal load regime can be tolerated or build things such that the departures from the norm are less frequent. I wonder if Mercedes strength lies in the latter. A much more consistent combustion process from rev to rev and across cylinders. That form of reliability is more difficult to chase than the other.

I think your proposal for regulation is interesting. Assuming they do run durability only sessions then no doubt they will have such data. If the reliability comes from combustion stability I’m not sure it would help those who can’t achieve it.
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Wass85
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Forgive me for my ignorance here, so are they only banning the use of the highest engine mode in qualifying?

In essence the highest mode they can run in qualifying is the highest setting available in the race?

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El Scorchio
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Wass85 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:33 am
Forgive me for my ignorance here, so are they only banning the use of the highest engine mode in qualifying?

In essence the highest mode they can run in qualifying is the highest setting available in the race?
Same, but my understanding is that they CAN use the highest engine mode in qualifying if they want but then they would have to use it in the race too under the new rules, and most likely the engine would fail due to the stresses upon it- so because of that, they would now choose not to use it in qualifying.

A proper rules expert can no doubt correct me!

Wass85
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:38 am
Wass85 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:33 am
Forgive me for my ignorance here, so are they only banning the use of the highest engine mode in qualifying?

In essence the highest mode they can run in qualifying is the highest setting available in the race?
Same, but my understanding is that they CAN use the highest engine mode in qualifying if they want but then they would have to use it in the race too under the new rules, and most likely the engine would fail due to the stresses upon it- so because of that, they would now choose not to use it in qualifying.

A proper rules expert can no doubt correct me!
But they use various engine modes throughout the race so how can they govern it?

Surely all a team needs to do is run the highest strat at some point in the race and they're covered?

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Sieper
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:38 am
Wass85 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:33 am
Forgive me for my ignorance here, so are they only banning the use of the highest engine mode in qualifying?

In essence the highest mode they can run in qualifying is the highest setting available in the race?
Same, but my understanding is that they CAN use the highest engine mode in qualifying if they want but then they would have to use it in the race too under the new rules, and most likely the engine would fail due to the stresses upon it- so because of that, they would now choose not to use it in qualifying.

A proper rules expert can no doubt correct me!
that is correct, or at least, that is how I also understand it. And you may actually go to a lower engine mode during the race, but only once (you can never go back to the higher mode) and only if there is a legitimate reason (a real engine problem, that needs to be defendable).

In fact that leaves questions open. but OK. we have not had much detail around this communicated. In fact, I still am not 100% sure it will be in effect this weekend.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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El Scorchio
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Wass85 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:42 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:38 am
Wass85 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:33 am
Forgive me for my ignorance here, so are they only banning the use of the highest engine mode in qualifying?

In essence the highest mode they can run in qualifying is the highest setting available in the race?
Same, but my understanding is that they CAN use the highest engine mode in qualifying if they want but then they would have to use it in the race too under the new rules, and most likely the engine would fail due to the stresses upon it- so because of that, they would now choose not to use it in qualifying.

A proper rules expert can no doubt correct me!
But they use various engine modes throughout the race so how can they govern it?

Surely all a team needs to do is run the highest strat at some point in the race and they're covered?
No idea really. I guess it's for the rulemakers to try and keep track of it. I am positive all the teams will come up with clever tricks and workarounds to maximise what they could still do within the new rules. Would be very interesting if for example Renault finds a clever (legal) trick first which really helps them. Could turn things a bit upside down.

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El Scorchio
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Sieper wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:44 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:38 am
Wass85 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:33 am
Forgive me for my ignorance here, so are they only banning the use of the highest engine mode in qualifying?

In essence the highest mode they can run in qualifying is the highest setting available in the race?
Same, but my understanding is that they CAN use the highest engine mode in qualifying if they want but then they would have to use it in the race too under the new rules, and most likely the engine would fail due to the stresses upon it- so because of that, they would now choose not to use it in qualifying.

A proper rules expert can no doubt correct me!
that is correct, or at least, that is how I also understand it. And you may actually go to a lower engine mode during the race, but only once (you can never go back to the higher mode) and only if there is a legitimate reason (a real engine problem, that needs to be defendable).

In fact that leaves questions open. but OK. we have not had much detail around this communicated. In fact, I still am not 100% sure it will be in effect this weekend.
That seems like a real handicap actually, so if you have a problem where you need to turn the engine down a bit, then you might as well just retire the car if you never have the option of switching back because you're only going to go backwards. So maybe we'll see more non-spectactular engine based retirements? Or more spectacular ones if they won't turn it down for fear of not being able to turn it back up....

I'm still not convinced this whole thing doesn't cause more issues than it's meant to solve. I'm still not sure what it's actually meant to solve aside from maybe making qualifying a bit closer.

djones
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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I'm so confused. Is this correct......

Teams currently have for example 10 engine modes.

In qualifying and parts of the race, they currently use the most powerful (less reliable) mode.

In the new rules whatever the engine mode setting you run in qualifying is then the exact mode you have to use for the entire race, with the exception of certain conditions such as safety car etc.

And you can turn it down in the race, but never back up.

??

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Morteza
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

djones
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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That video is really good. Thanks for posting it.

I suspect it's going to change nothing at all. The best engine will still be the best, only with fewer spikes in its performance, just a 100% consistent power advantage instead.

Also, I wonder if anybody will use strategic engine changes. Run them harder and take a penalty twice a year or something as the penalty is outweighed in the extra performance at the non-penalty races.

Mchamilton
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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stevesingo
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Could someone may take several engines in Monza to add more to the pool? They would have the option of running more engines harder for the rest of the season.

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Sieper
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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djones wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:33 am
I'm so confused. Is this correct......

Teams currently have for example 10 engine modes.

In qualifying and parts of the race, they currently use the most powerful (less reliable) mode.

In the new rules whatever the engine mode setting you run in qualifying is then the exact mode you have to use for the entire race, with the exception of certain conditions such as safety car etc.

And you can turn it down in the race, but never back up.

??
Yes, I think that is correct.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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Morteza
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare