2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
hurril
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:25 am
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:05 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:10 am
Compressor in E-MODE and TURBO in electric assist are two totally different modes although in both cases the ‘H’ is in motor mode (motoring). And so in both cases it, the ‘H’ is being supplied with electrical energy. But in E-MODE ‘H’ can only be supplied with electric energy from ES. While in TURBO electric assist mode it, the ‘H’. Can also be supplied by the ‘K’.
With compressor in E-MODE, the ‘H’ is always sharing ES power with ‘K’. The maximum electrical energy they can share over a lap is 4mj/120kw. And that is only possibly supplied by the ES.
With both ‘H’ and ‘K’ sharing ES power, there is no way that electrical energy sharing can last for anything near 33.33 seconds over one lap.
Some energy still finds its way to the turbine with wastegates wide open. Given the wastegates are electronically controlled, the teams can find a very good compromise between wastegate opening and H in generator mode to control boost pressure, furthermore the compressor bypass valve and throttles can help this.

More and more these engines are starting to be less turbocharged ICE's and more and more turbine engines with an ICE acting as the combustor.
Electronically controlled or not, With waste-gate/s fully opened (free load mode) no exhaust energy recovery by the turbine is possible.
This is not correct.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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hollus wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:39 am
The ES is not limited to supply 4mj over a lap. Its State Of Charge cannot differ by more of 4mj during parts of the same lap. This last sentence is actual limit written in the regs. To say that the energy drained is limited to 4mj is just a narrow interpretation.
You can build a 100mj storage, as long as you wiggle over only 4Mj over a lap, and you can use more than 4mj in one lap.

We went through this same issu in the Ferrari PU thread not that long ago:
hollus wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:57 pm
The K can draw its 4MJ at certain parts of the lap, but put energy back into storage at other parts of the lap. All in the same lap. The H can also put power into storage at certain parts of the lap, while drawing power at other parts of the lap. (I hope I didn't mangle this).
You can drink more than 1 L from a 1 L bottle. Obviously by refilling it in between. The rules only tell you that your bottle cannot be larger than 4MJ (excuse me, I meant 1L), they do not say how much you can drink from the bottle.
Understood. But the fact is that while in electric supercharger mode (free load mode) the ‘H’ is sharing ES power with ‘K’, and that power coming from ES cannot be more than 4mj per lap. With no possibility of any other source of power supplied while in free load mode. The free load mode will have to be terminated for any other electrical supply to get anywhere into the system. My original argument was that with ‘H’ and ‘K’ sharing ES power, there is no way a fully charged ES at maximum of 4mj, those 4mj will last anywhere near 33.33 seconds over a lap.

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hollus
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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You make it sound like the car will be in “free load” mode or “supercharger” mode or whatever you want to call it for the whole lap. But this is not so.
It only makes sense at full throttle, and even then one might trade a bit at top speed to apply it at acceleration phases.
The car certainly would not be in “energy waste” mode while braking or at part throttle, and it is in those periods where the extra above 4mj can be harvested to end the lap just 4mj below where you started while using 5 or 6 mj.
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saviour stivala
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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hollus wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:48 am
You make it sound like the car will be in “free load” mode or “supercharger” mode or whatever you want to call it for the whole lap. But this is not so.
It only makes sense at full throttle, and even then one might trade a bit at top speed to apply it at acceleration phases.
The car certainly would not be in “energy waste” mode while braking or at part throttle, and it is in those periods where the extra above 4mj can be harvested to end the lap just 4mj below where you started while using 5 or 6 mj.
Far from it. Making it sound that the car will be in free load mode (electric supercharging mode with 'H' and 'K' sharing ES power for the whole lap. in fact I declared that there is no way ES power in that mode can last anywhere near 33.33 seconds per lap.
But hollus. there is no need for you or anybody else to agree with me. just opinions being pushed-out on a technical
discussion forum.

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hollus
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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At this point I agree to disagree.
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saviour stivala
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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hollus wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:19 am
At this point I agree to disagree.
No problem.

PhillipM
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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hurril wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:50 am
This is not correct.
He's been trying to make this completely incorrect point for a year, you won't change his mind. He seems to believe wastegates are some sort of diverter valve instead of a pressure relief.

stevesingo
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:58 am
hollus wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:48 am
You make it sound like the car will be in “free load” mode or “supercharger” mode or whatever you want to call it for the whole lap. But this is not so.
It only makes sense at full throttle, and even then one might trade a bit at top speed to apply it at acceleration phases.
The car certainly would not be in “energy waste” mode while braking or at part throttle, and it is in those periods where the extra above 4mj can be harvested to end the lap just 4mj below where you started while using 5 or 6 mj.
Far from it. Making it sound that the car will be in free load mode (electric supercharging mode with 'H' and 'K' sharing ES power for the whole lap. in fact I declared that there is no way ES power in that mode can last anywhere near 33.33 seconds per lap.
But hollus. there is no need for you or anybody else to agree with me. just opinions being pushed-out on a technical
discussion forum.
IIRC the regulation states that the ES SOC cannot change be more than 4MJ at any time during the lap. That is, if you had a 8MJ ES, you couldn't end the lap at 3.9MJ as an example.

If there was no provision for re-charging the ES around the lap then running K and H driven compressor for more than 33sec would not be possible.

But, there is opportunities to recharge the ES around the lap. K under braking and maybe on throttle under certain circumstance. H under throttle dependent on engine modes at strategies used. In theory, the ES permitted variance in SOC could vary by any amount up to 4MJ many times per lap, thus resulting the energy available from the ES throughout a lap being much more than 4MJ.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:25 am
Electronically controlled or not, With waste-gate/s fully opened (free load mode) no exhaust energy recovery by the turbine is possible.
didn't the Wright paper (from which you recently quoted) show the world exactly otherwise ? ....

the TC had substantial turbine-recovery from exhaust at mean pressure equal to SL ambient without cost of crankshaft power
it's free power (regardless of whether it exceeds compressor power or not)

further - F1 might (rules permitting) when WGO do a good job of passing KE ('blowdown pulses') to the turbine

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:08 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:25 am
Electronically controlled or not, With waste-gate/s fully opened (free load mode) no exhaust energy recovery by the turbine is possible.
didn't the Wright paper (from which you recently quoted) show the world exactly otherwise ? ....
Of course it did. When that Wright paper was recently mentioned to prove this very point, SS conveniently chose to argue that the turbine was not connected to the crankshaft (which was obviously wrong since the opposite was clearly stated in the text) and now, a few weeks later he is back making the same dumb claims regarding harvesting with open wastegates.

Similarly his 4MJ interpretation has been explained and re-explained a number of times. All of these posts which really should be for his benefit are just wasted time and effort for several forum users. I applaud the patience of those arguing the same points over and over with him but it is increasingly clear that he is beyond reason. My gripe with this is that it's distracting from very interesting topics which end up being lost in these pointless arguments.

In this particular case it was henry who raised the interesting prospect of eliminating wastegates yet somehow that whole subject derailed into this mess.

Maybe mods should ressurect the thread where SS gets to debate his favourite topics ?

hurril
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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PhillipM wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:06 pm
hurril wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:50 am
This is not correct.
He's been trying to make this completely incorrect point for a year, you won't change his mind. He seems to believe wastegates are some sort of diverter valve instead of a pressure relief.
I know. Lots of people have explained it as well (and I don't intend this as being rude to saviour stivala - the people reading may not understand though.)

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henry
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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According to AMUS this is the list of engine parameters that the FIA want to not change between quali and race

Gasoline flow rate
Air flow
Boost
Combustion phase setting
Injection times
Switching speed
Petrol temperature
Pressure in pneumatic valve system, crankcase
Oil pressure
Wastegate valve timing and MGU-H working time
Control of the power measured at the output shaft
As ever with regulation changes I think this provides an opportunity to explore how the PUs might operate.

The first few are, I think, fairly obvious but:

Do they really vary the pressure in the valve system? Reduce it to reduce valve train losses? Run closer to losing control of the valves?

Does the control of wastegate and MGU-H control the the use of e-boost to be time limited, or perhaps that the parameters that control their operation don’t change? I thought that the choice of timing and duration fell under ERS Strategy rather than PU Control.

The last item I think suffers in translation, not mine sadly, I think Kontrolle refers to measurement rather than management. But I can’t see how that might be a parameter under the teams control.


Here’s the German, in case the translations above are misleading.
Benzindurchflussmenge
Luftmenge
Ladedruck
Verbrennungsphaseneinstellung
Einspritzzeiten
Schaltdrehzahl
Benzintemperatur
Druck im pneumastischen Ventilsystem, Kurbelgehäuse
Öldruck
Wastegateventil-Timing und MGU-H-Arbeitszeit
Kontrolle der an der Ausgangwelle gemessenen Leistung
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Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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MtthsMlw
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Yes, Kontrolle means measurement in this context.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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What is to stop someone from having a higher capacity battery? I guess I just need clarification. We have a 4MJ "bucket" for the ES, which is drained and filled throughout the lap. We also have a hard 4MJ limit per lap to the MGU-K. No such limit exists for the MGU-H.

We also know that state of charge is not the same as battery capacity. The state of charge on an electric car is probably the middle 70-80% of the battery pack's actual capacity. As that is where the battery is most efficient with regards to charging and discharging.

Wouldn't it benefit the MGU-H to have a higher capacity battery? Since energy flow to the MGU-H is unlimited, as long as you satisfy the SOC rule, wouldn't you want extra capacity for the MGU-H?
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henry
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:30 pm
What is to stop someone from having a higher capacity battery? I guess I just need clarification. We have a 4MJ "bucket" for the ES, which is drained and filled throughout the lap. We also have a hard 4MJ limit per lap to the MGU-K. No such limit exists for the MGU-H.

We also know that state of charge is not the same as battery capacity. The state of charge on an electric car is probably the middle 70-80% of the battery pack's actual capacity. As that is where the battery is most efficient with regards to charging and discharging.

Wouldn't it benefit the MGU-H to have a higher capacity battery? Since energy flow to the MGU-H is unlimited, as long as you satisfy the SOC rule, wouldn't you want extra capacity for the MGU-H?
I believe that extra capacity, and extra efficiency, would affect the amount of energy that can be processed by the ES over a race duration. The rules allow you to take out of the ES what you put in, 100% efficiency. If the ES is not 100% efficient any losses can be made up by excess ES capacity.

If you have 4MJ excess capacity and 98% efficiency you can process 200MJ over a race distance. About 3MJ per lap. I would think that enough. Of course a larger capacity affects efficiency because of lower C-rate and the opportunity to run in the best efficiency region of the battery for more of the race.

The most arduous duty cycle for the ES is e-boost at around 200kW, which I think is around 50C. The efficiency no doubt suffers at this sort of duty. A higher battery capacity would no doubt help this, particularly if they choose to run more e-boost in the race.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus