Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
dans79
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Dr. Acula wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:34 pm
It's actually quite simple.

The state of charge of the ES can vary by 4 MJ. There is no timeconstrains to that. You can charge and discharge as fast as you want and as many times per lap as you want. So if you can manage to charge and discharge the whole 4MJ 3 times per lap you are allowed to do so.
This exactly, as is laid out in appendix 3 of the technical regulations.
https://www.fia.com/file/80070/download/27450
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saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Yes the energy flow to the 'H' is not limited unlike that to the 'K'. the question still remains, With a maximum battery/ES SOC of 4MJ.when 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power when waste-gates are open, the 'K' is allowed to make use of 4MJ per lap. where does the 'H' gets its power from?.

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hollus
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The K can draw its 4MJ at certain parts of the lap, but put energy back into storage at other parts of the lap. All in the same lap. The H can also put power into storage at certain parts of the lap, while drawing power at other parts of the lap. (I hope I didn't mangle this).
You can drink more than 1 L from a 1 L bottle. Obviously by refilling it in between. The rules only tell you that your bottle cannot be larger than 4MJ (excuse me, I meant 1L), they do not say how much you can drink from the bottle.
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saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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hollus wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:57 pm
The K can draw its 4MJ at certain parts of the lap, but put energy back into storage at other parts of the lap. All in the same lap. The H can also put power into storage at certain parts of the lap, while drawing power at other parts of the lap. (I hope I didn't mangle this).
You can drink more than 1 L from a 1 L bottle. Obviously by refilling it in between. The rules only tell you that your bottle cannot be larger than 4MJ (excuse me, I meant 1L), they do not say how much you can drink from the bottle.

Correct. but the problem re this "waste-gates open and both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power subject is. both 'K' and 'H' are deploying at the same time. and as far as I know neither the 'K' nor the 'H' can deploy and harvest at the same time. so when they are both deploying with waste-gates open they are sharing the maximum allowed 4MJ battery/ES stored power.

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Zarathustra
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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hollus wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:57 pm
The K can draw its 4MJ at certain parts of the lap, but put energy back into storage at other parts of the lap. All in the same lap. The H can also put power into storage at certain parts of the lap, while drawing power at other parts of the lap. (I hope I didn't mangle this).
You can drink more than 1 L from a 1 L bottle. Obviously by refilling it in between. The rules only tell you that your bottle cannot be larger than 4MJ (excuse me, I meant 1L), they do not say how much you can drink from the bottle.
If this is the case- then G*d damn you made it sound easy =D>

Very good explanation.

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hollus
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Stivala, are you suggesting that the wastegates are open for the whole lap? And that deployment includes braking and part throttle phases on top of every full throttle part? I’d guess the energy management strategies are a bit more sophisticated than that.
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Zarathustra
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Would it be possible to create a ‘flow’ through the battery- plus have it discharge at the same time?

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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No I am suggesting nothing of the sort. It is a pity that such an interesting discussion most of the time deviates away from the original tame. The original :- “with waste-gates open ‘K’ and ‘H’ are sharing battery power” nobody disputed that. “battery/ES SOC is regulated” some said it is not. It than moved out to “exhaust blow-down gasses can still give a gain, this notwithstanding with the compressor in electric supercharging mode and with waste-gates open, need not go over that again as both ‘K’ and ‘H’ cannot deploy and harvest at the same time.
The problem:- the ‘K’ can deploy 4MJ of battery/ES power per lap. As the ‘K’ and ‘H’ can only either deploy or harvest, when with open waste-gates and with electrical supercharging mode they are sharing battery/ES power, were does the ‘H’ gets its electric power from?. A note here, this mode is the least efficient mode of all and for sure the biggest/fastest battery/ES drain of all modes. But it is the mode that produces the maximum power from the power unit.

dans79
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:37 pm
The problem:- the ‘K’ can deploy 4MJ of battery/ES power per lap. As the ‘K’ and ‘H’ can only either deploy or harvest, when with open waste-gates and with electrical supercharging mode they are sharing battery/ES power, were does the ‘H’ gets its electric power from?
Are you literally asking how to run two electric devise off of one battery at the same time?
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hollus
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Enough is enough, everyone. Please silently agree to disagree. Moving on...
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Mattchu
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Image

Really study this diagram taking particular note of the ES paragraph "The difference between the maximum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on track"...As stated above, you can use a bit, then put some back in, use some more. put more back in, as many times as you wish, as long as you don`t use more than is allowed at any point in the lap.

This may help

Code: Select all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt
I personally think Ferrari potentially have a much better/more efficient MGUH system and this is what is giving them their power advantage. They don`t seem to have as much of a cooling issue as some teams [opening up bodywork, etc], maybe this is a clue they can use the heat generated better.
Chapeau to them, they`ve sure built a cracker which also seems to be very reliable.

gruntguru
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:30 pm

Correct. but the problem re this "waste-gates open and both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power subject is. both 'K' and 'H' are deploying at the same time. and as far as I know neither the 'K' nor the 'H' can deploy and harvest at the same time. so when they are both deploying with waste-gates open they are sharing the maximum allowed 4MJ battery/ES stored power.
I think I understand what you are saying. Yes the 4 MJ SOC limit puts a reasonably short time limit on electric supercharger mode.

Let's say the ES is fully charged. If the K is used at 120 kW to accelerate, it can be run for 33.3 seconds before the ES SOC hits the bottom and K deployment has to stop. If electric supercharger mode is used and power draw is 120 + 100 = 220 kW, the ES will be empty after 18.2 seconds. Neither mode can be used again until the ES SOC has been increased above zero.
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wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Not many tracks in F1 where full power is used continuously for 18s.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:00 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:30 pm

Correct. but the problem re this "waste-gates open and both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power subject is. both 'K' and 'H' are deploying at the same time. and as far as I know neither the 'K' nor the 'H' can deploy and harvest at the same time. so when they are both deploying with waste-gates open they are sharing the maximum allowed 4MJ battery/ES stored power.
I think I understand what you are saying. Yes the 4 MJ SOC limit puts a reasonably short time limit on electric supercharger mode.

Let's say the ES is fully charged. If the K is used at 120 kW to accelerate, it can be run for 33.3 seconds before the ES SOC hits the bottom and K deployment has to stop. If electric supercharger mode is used and power draw is 120 + 100 = 220 kW, the ES will be empty after 18.2 seconds. Neither mode can be used again until the ES SOC has been increased above zero.
YES and Correct. Yes With a fully charged battery/ES (4MJ as permitted by the rules) the 'K' is permitted by the rules to use 120 KW for 33.33 seconds per lap. And also Yes the 4MJ SOC limited by the rules puts a short time limit on electric supercharging mode when running with waste-gates open because both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power.

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Zynerji
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I would expect a Q lap would be 4MJ from Batt->K, and running the H in pulsed harvest mode once minimum necessary "boost" is achieved, dumping all harvest energy directly to the K.

So, K max/lap = 4MJ batt + over harvest of H.

Can someone correct that if I'm mistaken, plz?