2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Dr. Acula wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:57 am
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:39 am
I'd argue the MGUH is THE single most roadcar relevant part of Formula 1.
Actually it's the probably the least roadcar relevant part. What do you need to make the MGU-H work well? Full throttle conditions. What do you hardly use in a road car, especially in city driving? Full throttle.
What can make sense in a roadcar is an electrical supported turbocharger. But you will never get into the situation where you can win substantial amounts of energy out of the Turbocharger in a roadcar like it is done in F1.
It is likely that a turbo-compound system would only be used as a range extender in a series hybrid. The range extender could operate at a specific rpm and load to drive the generator. In that case the turbine/turbo does not have to spool up, so it could be directly coupled to the crankshaft.

Jolle
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:21 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:57 am
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:39 am
I'd argue the MGUH is THE single most roadcar relevant part of Formula 1.
Actually it's the probably the least roadcar relevant part. What do you need to make the MGU-H work well? Full throttle conditions. What do you hardly use in a road car, especially in city driving? Full throttle.
What can make sense in a roadcar is an electrical supported turbocharger. But you will never get into the situation where you can win substantial amounts of energy out of the Turbocharger in a roadcar like it is done in F1.
It is likely that a turbo-compound system would only be used as a range extender in a series hybrid. The range extender could operate at a specific rpm and load to drive the generator. In that case the turbine/turbo does not have to spool up, so it could be directly coupled to the crankshaft.
There are definitely applications for a H-unit on the normal roads. Not with commuter cars that only use 10% of their power for 99% of the time, but there are a lot of commercial vehicles that are within the range. Think city busses, delivery trucks, etc etc.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Dr. Acula wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:57 am
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:39 am
I'd argue the MGUH is THE single most roadcar relevant part of Formula 1.
Actually it's the probably the least roadcar relevant part. What do you need to make the MGU-H work well? Full throttle conditions. What do you hardly use in a road car, especially in city driving? Full throttle.
What can make sense in a roadcar is an electrical supported turbocharger. But you will never get into the situation where you can win substantial amounts of energy out of the Turbocharger in a roadcar like it is done in F1.
FW17 wrote:Is it possible for you to quantify this with MJ loss per lap and the weight of fuel required to compensate it?


The MGUK is 120kw assuming it runs 70% of the lap on full recovery(a big assumption) it will generate 1.9kwh which is 6.72 MJ
This is equal to 20kg fuel through the race.

If we consider only 4 MJ recovery a lap (about 50%), the saving is 12kg a race.
12kg is not much considering the MGUH along with its associated components probably weighs more than that
Years ago Magnetti Marelli had published a slide which showed the energy recovered per lap from the 2 different systems. Depending on the track the MGU-H could recover from about 4 to almost up to 8MJ per lap, i think it was in 2016. Also don't forget that you don't get all the energy out from the fuel to the road. The ERS system is at least twice as efficient compared with simply burning fuel, which means you save at least twice the amount you stated.
I'd say you need RPMs for the mguh more than full throttle. And that is custom made for downsizing.
Last edited by Zynerji on Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Stu
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Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:29 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:57 am
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:39 am
I'd argue the MGUH is THE single most roadcar relevant part of Formula 1.
Actually it's the probably the least roadcar relevant part. What do you need to make the MGU-H work well? Full throttle conditions. What do you hardly use in a road car, especially in city driving? Full throttle.
What can make sense in a roadcar is an electrical supported turbocharger. But you will never get into the situation where you can win substantial amounts of energy out of the Turbocharger in a roadcar like it is done in F1.
FW17 wrote:Is it possible for you to quantify this with MJ loss per lap and the weight of fuel required to compensate it?


The MGUK is 120kw assuming it runs 70% of the lap on full recovery(a big assumption) it will generate 1.9kwh which is 6.72 MJ
This is equal to 20kg fuel through the race.

If we consider only 4 MJ recovery a lap (about 50%), the saving is 12kg a race.
12kg is not much considering the MGUH along with its associated components probably weighs more than that
Years ago Magnetti Marelli had published a slide which showed the energy recovered per lap from the 2 different systems. Depending on the track the MGU-H could recover from about 4 to almost up to 8MJ per lap, i think it was in 2016. Also don't forget that you don't get all the energy out from the fuel to the road. The ERS system is at least twice as efficient compared with simply burning fuel, which means you save at least twice the amount you stated.
I'd say you need RPMs for the mguh more that full throttle. And that is custom made for downsizing.
You beat me to it, most turbo road cars use undersize turbos (as compared to that required for peak power at mid/high rpm), purely to avoid lag and also to increase low rpm torque, which means that they achieve peak rpm at a much lower airflow.
Common sense is not as common as stupidity, but it is better to be uninformed than to be mis-informed...

NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Of current manufacturers only Ferrari is interested in future combustion engines. Mercedes, Honda & Renault is focussing on EV only. They will keep selling ICE powered cars, but without much interest of marketing or development of new engines.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Martin Keene
Martin Keene
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:29 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:57 am
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:39 am
I'd argue the MGUH is THE single most roadcar relevant part of Formula 1.
Actually it's the probably the least roadcar relevant part. What do you need to make the MGU-H work well? Full throttle conditions. What do you hardly use in a road car, especially in city driving? Full throttle.
What can make sense in a roadcar is an electrical supported turbocharger. But you will never get into the situation where you can win substantial amounts of energy out of the Turbocharger in a roadcar like it is done in F1.
FW17 wrote:Is it possible for you to quantify this with MJ loss per lap and the weight of fuel required to compensate it?


The MGUK is 120kw assuming it runs 70% of the lap on full recovery(a big assumption) it will generate 1.9kwh which is 6.72 MJ
This is equal to 20kg fuel through the race.

If we consider only 4 MJ recovery a lap (about 50%), the saving is 12kg a race.
12kg is not much considering the MGUH along with its associated components probably weighs more than that
Years ago Magnetti Marelli had published a slide which showed the energy recovered per lap from the 2 different systems. Depending on the track the MGU-H could recover from about 4 to almost up to 8MJ per lap, i think it was in 2016. Also don't forget that you don't get all the energy out from the fuel to the road. The ERS system is at least twice as efficient compared with simply burning fuel, which means you save at least twice the amount you stated.
I'd say you need RPMs for the mguh more than full throttle. And that is custom made for downsizing.
What you really need is mass air flow, whether that comes from large throttle openings or huge RPM is largely irrelevant, but the more mass airflow, the more energy available to put into the turbo charger.

The reason MGU-H works on an F1 engine is they are limited to 125k RPM, which in comparison to modern road vehicle engines is slow, so when the turbo on the F1 engine approaches the speed limit, they just suck a load of electrical energy out of the MGU-H to keep a lid on turbo speed.

Two things you don't have, or indeed want to a certain extent, in a road application is massive throttle openings or RPM to promote huge mass air flow. But, the bigger problem for road relevance goes back to the point somebody was asking about earlier which is the cost of the MGU-H, the person asking is correct, a 125k RPM 3 phase electrical machine is not that expensive anymore. Neither is a motorsport turbocharger. Combining them both together is the issue. Motorsport engines produce a lot of heat and vibration. Exactly the two things that highly sensitive electrical machines do not like... trying to make a 125k RPM electrical machine that can cope with ~800 deg C and massive vibration is the big problem.

The MGU-H is essentially a basic form of waste heat recovery, it is recovery the energy left in the exhaust stream. There have been many studies over the years on waste heat recovery in vehicles and mobile applications, and it always falls down on the same problem, the cost of the system always outweighs the full it saves. Typically they are in the 2-6% territory on SFC saving, simple systems like MGU-H being at the bottom end of that range and full waste heat recovery systems with exhaust boilers, etc nearer the top.

gshevlin
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Any device that harvests energy from any combination of exhaust gas velocity and temperature always has to be highly durable. Back in the early 1950's Wright Engines developed the Power Recovery Turbines concept for the R-3350, which harvested exhaust gas energy and converted it to power using fluid couplings to the crankshaft. Excellent device on paper, capable of adding in excess of 500BHP to the engine power output at high cruise. Except that the harsh conditions of the devices led to numerous failures in operation, and the sarcastic renaming by mechanics (who had to work on failed units) to "Parts Recovery Turbines".

toraabe
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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If the 'H' unit was binned, would there be a call to tighten corners on some tracks?
Would there be enough time to recover the needed energy in places like Monza without the 'H'?
I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it-
Voltaire, or several other claimants.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Yuck

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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toraabe wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:34 pm
Not surprising. https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/09/16 ... pu-future/
Sounds fair to me:
Mercedes have stipulated that for them to be willing to honor their agreement in principle to follow suit in settling to drop the MGU-H technology the following concessions must be made:

That any new suppliers be responsible for payment of a ‘commitment’ fee for the right to be a new F1 PU supplier
That Red Bull Powertrains not be recognized as an existing PU supplier, but rather a new one, and said fee to be payable by them
That the current Concorde Agreement be extended by at least 12 months, effectively quashing the FIA and F1’s ability to formulate new PU regulations unilaterally without consultation for that period
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:18 pm
wuzak wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:21 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:57 am

Actually it's the probably the least roadcar relevant part. What do you need to make the MGU-H work well? Full throttle conditions. What do you hardly use in a road car, especially in city driving? Full throttle.
What can make sense in a roadcar is an electrical supported turbocharger. But you will never get into the situation where you can win substantial amounts of energy out of the Turbocharger in a roadcar like it is done in F1.
It is likely that a turbo-compound system would only be used as a range extender in a series hybrid. The range extender could operate at a specific rpm and load to drive the generator. In that case the turbine/turbo does not have to spool up, so it could be directly coupled to the crankshaft.
There are definitely applications for a H-unit on the normal roads. Not with commuter cars that only use 10% of their power for 99% of the time, but there are a lot of commercial vehicles that are within the range. Think city busses, delivery trucks, etc etc.
Ambulances!! We rev the bejeezuz out of them all the time!!
Lando Norris: "Such a great driver"
Daniel Ricciardo: "Darren" 🤣

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subcritical71
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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adrianjordan wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:56 am
Jolle wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:18 pm
wuzak wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:21 pm


It is likely that a turbo-compound system would only be used as a range extender in a series hybrid. The range extender could operate at a specific rpm and load to drive the generator. In that case the turbine/turbo does not have to spool up, so it could be directly coupled to the crankshaft.
There are definitely applications for a H-unit on the normal roads. Not with commuter cars that only use 10% of their power for 99% of the time, but there are a lot of commercial vehicles that are within the range. Think city busses, delivery trucks, etc etc.
Ambulances!! We rev the bejeezuz out of them all the time!!
I’ll see your ambulances and raise you rental cars! =P~

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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So guys, another question.

How do would feel about a capped power output? Like in the WEC LMDh class, where the torque output curve is identical for every powerunit. The manufacturers can only compete in consumption, packaging and reliability.

Could be interesting to see, if the best engines is not giving 0,3-0,6s advantage in qualifing and the best chassis-driver combo is in front. Than in the race the beter engine can give a little advantage and maybe some more battle/overtakes if the better engine qualifies further back.

We can also lose the fuel flowlimiter.