2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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adrianjordan wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:25 pm
Curbstone wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:58 am
AeroDynamic wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:32 pm
It’s lucky for drivers to have free choice of tyres? :wtf: Sorry, I forgot where I was. Max is only unlucky, anybody else is lucky. :lol:

The engine destroyed is unlucky, but like the saying goes, you make your own luck. If you have a racing incident, the outcome is of your own making; good or bad, it’s of your own making.sorry it didn’t work out for your driver that time.
You should stop calling Silverstone a racing incident, Lewis received a penalty for that. If you keep calling it a racing incident it kinda reveals your bias to Lewis.
I disagree. I am a McLaren fan and yet I see it as a racing incident, as it must be said did a number of commentators and drivers at the time.

I subscribe to the belief that it WAS a racing incident and one that Max could have avoided at that. Doesn't make me a Lewis fan, nor does it mean I blame Max.

I think the stewards caved to the pressure to be seen to do something, which is why they gave Lewis a penalty.

I do wonder whether, had they not given Lewis a penalty at Silverstone, Max would still have gotten one at Monza.

Either way, I just want a clean, fair fight for the title. Of course I'd also settle for both drivers taking each other off at every remaining race and Lando coming through to take a surprise first title lol

I agree. I see it through a more neutral lens. The FIA under massi cave under external pressure, I’m sure that will change after some years, maybe decades, in his role, with more experience.

they cornered themselves into penalising racing incidents from there. Neither of them should have got a penalty.

Curbstone
Curbstone
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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adrianjordan wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:20 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:15 pm
Teams these days should just focus on beating each other on the track. Illegal things should be policed, but banning legal technology to get your way back to the top is hardly a sport.
Qyite often when they put in protests and the like, such as this, it is because they want to know whether something is permitted before trying it themselves.

I also assume you're new to the sport, because this sort of political wrangling has gone on for decades!!
I don't think so. They may say the protest is because they want more clarity on the rules, but most of the time the real reason is because they are convinced it is against regulations and the other team is cheating. Now that obviously doesn't really sound well in press statements, so the 'more clarity' explanation is used most of the times.

And yes is has been going on a long time, but I reckon it's an annoying part of the sport.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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After analysis. And my head says Redbull has been the better team, the better car and Max has made less mistakes driving-wise. I have to say congrats to RedBull amd Max. It will take an astromonical amount of luck for Mercedes to win the drivers' chamlionship. I mean like luck of the Gods here.

Max is perfectly in tune with his RedBull and he has no worries over engine use, plus the upcomming tracks favour the car.

We have seen how the car has worked on every single track this year where the Mercedes hasn't. So, I think once Max does his thing and keeps out of trouble he will have done enough to secure his maiden championship.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
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BassVirolla
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:54 pm
After analysis. And my head says Redbull has been the better team, the better car and Max has made less mistakes driving-wise. I have to say congrats to RedBull amd Max. It will take an astromonical amount of luck for Mercedes to win the drivers' chamlionship. I mean like luck of the Gods here.

Max is perfectly in tune with his RedBull and he has no worries over engine use, plus the upcomming tracks favour the car.

We have seen how the car has worked on every single track this year where the Mercedes hasn't. So, I think once Max does his thing and keeps out of trouble he will have done enough to secure his maiden championship.

I aint even mad. That's just the way it is. The "Octo-God" was a false messiah it seems.
With the first bold part I quite agree. Not the same to be said about the second part.

While Red Bull as a team & Max are quite smashing, and MB are sometimes making poor calls with pit stops, the Red Bull usually is faster at one qualy lap (not always; keep in mind the Friday qualys in GB & IT, where the Mercs were comfortably faster, but Max recovered in the sprint qualy race). In long runs race pace, the Mercs look a bit faster and more consistent than the RB, especially in harder tyre compounds and lighter fuel loads.

In my opinion, the WDC is still to be fighted, but is being slowly gifted to RB by Merc as a team, more than LH doing specially wrong, or Max doing excepcionally good.

If Merc gets it right from now, I think it will be very tight until the end.

I'll be happy to get corrected if past or future facts do so. But that's my two cents about this WDC, based on my gut feeling after seeing all 2021 races until date.

Curbstone
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Mercedes (including Lewis) have dropped the ball a couple of times the past races. But see where it got them, leading both WDC and WCC.
I don't see a strong consensus in the absolute favorite for the coming races, so if Mercedes and Lewis get their act straight, they may have a good shot at both titles.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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This information about the PU from Lewis is very important for the WDC, so it belongs also in this topic.
When Lewis gets a penalty for his 4th PU, he must start from the back of the grid, like Max did in Russia.

tami.@Vetteleclerc

#AMuS: Mercedes had noticed some weaknesses in its engines over the course of the season as they get older. And a higher loss of power than in previous years.
That's why it's not an option for Hamilton to do the final races with just his remaining two power units.

Both of Hamilton's power units would have done around 4,000 kilometers by then. And that increases the risk of a failure.

Mercedes obviously wants to wait with the engine change for Hamilton until the worst problems [of their engine] have been identified and resolved.
With an early use of PU4, Hamilton would have to drag himself through the season. The perfect time matters now.

------> Mercedes engineer: "It probably won't happen in Turkey unless Lewis has a problem there.
We expect a close race against Red Bull there."

------> Mercedes engineer: "But after Turkey, the PU change for Lewis has to come.
You try to schedule it so it's on a track where you're particularly strong or particularly weak.
Or when rain comes. Mexico will be a Red Bull track. Interlagos might be, too."

In the paddock, there is already some speculation as to what the weak point of the Mercedes engines is this year.
Red Bull claims to have heard something about the crankshaft and the valve seats. This is not confirmed by Mercedes.

Toto Wolff explains: "They are small things, stupidly always different. No clear pattern is seen..."

A Mercedes engineer says: "There is a fire in every corner."

Helmut Marko on the Mercedes PU issues : "Mercedes used to have it easy. They used the power for the first few laps & then ran the engines in "cruising" gear.
That's no longer possible. Now they often have to drive in a higher mode. And that's where the problems come in."
The Power of Honda!

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BassVirolla
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Curbstone wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:09 am
Mercedes (including Lewis) have dropped the ball a couple of times the past races. But see where it got them, leading both WDC and WCC.
I don't see a strong consensus in the absolute favorite for the coming races, so if Mercedes and Lewis get their act straight, they may have a good shot at both titles.
Not for Curbstone, don't get me wrong, but:

That's the type of response I expect when someone agrees or disagrees with something, better than downvoting me for "underestimating Redbull success"
.

If anything, the Redbull success, to me looks quite impressing, having in mind all the circumstances.

If someone strongly disagrees with something is better to, staying chill and peaceful, keep discussing. We all can learn from it. After all, this is a discussion forum.

Nevertheless, if I post wrong facts and someone can provide data that reveals them as wrong, I'll happily get to be downvoted. Until then, I come here to stay reading respectful digressing (or not!) opinions.

At this, my upvote for Curbstone. Not totally agreeing with me, but keeping a good thread.

P.S.: If mods find this unadecuated or offtopic, I'll understand it, but not solving opinion differences by downvoting.

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etusch
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:53 am
This information about the PU from Lewis is very important for the WDC, so it belongs also in this topic.
When Lewis gets a penalty for his 4th PU, he must start from the back of the grid, like Max did in Russia.

tami.@Vetteleclerc

#AMuS: Mercedes had noticed some weaknesses in its engines over the course of the season as they get older. And a higher loss of power than in previous years.
That's why it's not an option for Hamilton to do the final races with just his remaining two power units.

Both of Hamilton's power units would have done around 4,000 kilometers by then. And that increases the risk of a failure.

Mercedes obviously wants to wait with the engine change for Hamilton until the worst problems [of their engine] have been identified and resolved.
With an early use of PU4, Hamilton would have to drag himself through the season. The perfect time matters now.

------> Mercedes engineer: "It probably won't happen in Turkey unless Lewis has a problem there.
We expect a close race against Red Bull there."

------> Mercedes engineer: "But after Turkey, the PU change for Lewis has to come.
You try to schedule it so it's on a track where you're particularly strong or particularly weak.
Or when rain comes. Mexico will be a Red Bull track. Interlagos might be, too."

In the paddock, there is already some speculation as to what the weak point of the Mercedes engines is this year.
Red Bull claims to have heard something about the crankshaft and the valve seats. This is not confirmed by Mercedes.

Toto Wolff explains: "They are small things, stupidly always different. No clear pattern is seen..."

A Mercedes engineer says: "There is a fire in every corner."

Helmut Marko on the Mercedes PU issues : "Mercedes used to have it easy. They used the power for the first few laps & then ran the engines in "cruising" gear.
That's no longer possible. Now they often have to drive in a higher mode. And that's where the problems come in."
They are planning 23 races so 3 pu per year rule may be revised.

Curbstone
Curbstone
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I believe for 2021 originally also 23 races were scheduled. This year we lost 4 races; Canada, Singapore, Japan and Australia. In return 3 were added; Steiermark, Turkey and Qatar..

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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etusch wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:58 am
Wouter wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:53 am
This information about the PU from Lewis is very important for the WDC, so it belongs also in this topic.
When Lewis gets a penalty for his 4th PU, he must start from the back of the grid, like Max did in Russia.

tami.@Vetteleclerc

#AMuS: Mercedes had noticed some weaknesses in its engines over the course of the season as they get older. And a higher loss of power than in previous years.
That's why it's not an option for Hamilton to do the final races with just his remaining two power units.

Both of Hamilton's power units would have done around 4,000 kilometers by then. And that increases the risk of a failure.

Mercedes obviously wants to wait with the engine change for Hamilton until the worst problems [of their engine] have been identified and resolved.
With an early use of PU4, Hamilton would have to drag himself through the season. The perfect time matters now.

------> Mercedes engineer: "It probably won't happen in Turkey unless Lewis has a problem there.
We expect a close race against Red Bull there."

------> Mercedes engineer: "But after Turkey, the PU change for Lewis has to come.
You try to schedule it so it's on a track where you're particularly strong or particularly weak.
Or when rain comes. Mexico will be a Red Bull track. Interlagos might be, too."

In the paddock, there is already some speculation as to what the weak point of the Mercedes engines is this year.
Red Bull claims to have heard something about the crankshaft and the valve seats. This is not confirmed by Mercedes.

Toto Wolff explains: "They are small things, stupidly always different. No clear pattern is seen..."

A Mercedes engineer says: "There is a fire in every corner."

Helmut Marko on the Mercedes PU issues : "Mercedes used to have it easy. They used the power for the first few laps & then ran the engines in "cruising" gear.
That's no longer possible. Now they often have to drive in a higher mode. And that's where the problems come in."
They are planning 23 races so 3 pu per year rule may be revised.
How? Are they going to undo the punishment already taken by those who had to take a 4th PU (and more). That seems impossible.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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BassVirolla wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:25 am
Curbstone wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:09 am
Mercedes (including Lewis) have dropped the ball a couple of times the past races. But see where it got them, leading both WDC and WCC.
I don't see a strong consensus in the absolute favorite for the coming races, so if Mercedes and Lewis get their act straight, they may have a good shot at both titles.
Not for Curbstone, don't get me wrong, but:

That's the type of response I expect when someone agrees or disagrees with something, better than downvoting me for "underestimating Redbull success"
.

If anything, the Redbull success, to me looks quite impressing, having in mind all the circumstances.

If someone strongly disagrees with something is better to, staying chill and peaceful, keep discussing. We all can learn from it. After all, this is a discussion forum.

Nevertheless, if I post wrong facts and someone can provide data that reveals them as wrong, I'll happily get to be downvoted. Until then, I come here to stay reading respectful digressing (or not!) opinions.

At this, my upvote for Curbstone. Not totally agreeing with me, but keeping a good thread.

P.S.: If mods find this unadecuated or offtopic, I'll understand it, but not solving opinion differences by downvoting.
You won’t get downvoted for having a different opinion. That is unfair, uncalled for, and not allowed on here. Same for agreement, you cannot upvote for that. Only for an insightfull post, or offering new information.

But the mods have had to be quite active on here (again) as a new user (again) started to hijack the thread and ridicule the long term posters, real RBR racing team thread interested posters on here.

Ps, this is all off topic and not blaming you (at all) but we are loosing actual RBR team interested posters/readers here because of it. Which is unfair and a big, big shame. It is making me angry and I have myself stopped posting for the same reason for some time.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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BassVirolla wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:25 am
Curbstone wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:09 am
Mercedes (including Lewis) have dropped the ball a couple of times the past races. But see where it got them, leading both WDC and WCC.
I don't see a strong consensus in the absolute favorite for the coming races, so if Mercedes and Lewis get their act straight, they may have a good shot at both titles.
Not for Curbstone, don't get me wrong, but:

That's the type of response I expect when someone agrees or disagrees with something, better than downvoting me for "underestimating Redbull success"
.

If anything, the Redbull success, to me looks quite impressing, having in mind all the circumstances.

If someone strongly disagrees with something is better to, staying chill and peaceful, keep discussing. We all can learn from it. After all, this is a discussion forum.

Nevertheless, if I post wrong facts and someone can provide data that reveals them as wrong, I'll happily get to be downvoted. Until then, I come here to stay reading respectful digressing (or not!) opinions.

At this, my upvote for Curbstone. Not totally agreeing with me, but keeping a good thread.

P.S.: If mods find this unadecuated or offtopic, I'll understand it, but not solving opinion differences by downvoting.
The reality is, the voting system is used for agreement and disagreement.. Or liking, and disliking, despite the intention for it to be used on new information, facts, info etc. Which is a shame, likes and dislikes would be a good feature for users to express that. It’s also a shame that people use the vote feedback to personally attack you, it’s like a loophole around the rules :lol:

As for The title, it can go either way. For me, Max, Red Bull and Honda have executed better in most areas this season, they deserve this championship. What a send off for Honda it would be, after the trials they went through with McLaren and F. Alonso. It would be Honda coming full circle ⭕️ that Honda come back, beat the team they sold off that became champions with their car. The last laugh of the hybrid era under these current regs =D>

Mercedes and Lewis look a bit rusty. At 36, it’s questionable if Lewis has still got the level he had back in 2018. They could still win it, but for me they aren’t the favourites. Let’s see these next few races which driver team can execute at the better level, if history is a predictor, it will likely be red bull. Something would have to go against them at this rate.

I’m not convinced which car is ahead at the moment. Things have been muddied since Silverstone. Just how much has their upgrade caught up? Has the stream of upgrades from red bull kept them even or ahead?

Silverstone: Mercedes snatches pole, but Max bemoans understeer, suggesting his lap time was not representative of what was in the car.

Hungary: Max bemoans similar issues, on a track where red bull were expected to be strong.

Since the summer break, understeer hasn’t been an issue, but we have been at tracks that compliment the low drag philosophy.

Zandvoort was more balanced, but Mercedes could have had more set up time in practice, it might have been closer.

I think USA, Turkey, Abu Dhabu are going to make clear what we have.

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etusch
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:53 pm

How? Are they going to undo the punishment already taken by those who had to take a 4th PU (and more). That seems impossible.
It late for this year. I mean for next year. I just forgot to write "next year".

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ringo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I think what does a disservice to the job the engineers at redbull have achieved is fans blindly believing Max is getting 100% out of the car all the time. They don't think he may have a less than optimal session ever. Hungary and Silverstone were some examples. I think if those races were normal weekends, Max would have been able to recover from bad qualifying and have a very strong race. So we were robbed a clear picture of the pace of the RB16B.
For Sure!!

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BassVirolla
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:41 pm

[...]

As for The title, it can go either way. For me, Max, Red Bull and Honda have executed better in most areas this season, they deserve this championship. What a send off for Honda it would be, after the trials they went through with McLaren and F. Alonso. It would be Honda coming full circle ⭕️ that Honda come back, beat the team they sold off that became champions with their car. The last laugh of the hybrid era under these current regs =D>

[...]
I've never thought about this in this way. :lol: