2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mzso
mzso
50
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:02 am
I'd say a carbon-neutral fuel source is very modern. Then we can get back to the sound while being "green".
Um, no. It's still just the liquid you pour in the tanks, won't make the cars less regressive...
The fuel itself is outside the scope of F1 technology, it's just something they use.

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 am
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

wesley123 wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:15 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:02 am
I'd say a carbon-neutral fuel source is very modern. Then we can get back to the sound while being "green".
Except it's not even remotely green. Not only is the manufacturing more complex, it is quite significantly less efficient. It requires more energy to produce than an electric car itself uses. And then we haven't even mentioned the actual efficiency in use. For synthetic fuels this will be around 50%, just like current engines. EV's however, have an efficiency that is far higher.

So in short; It is more energy intensive to make, and less efficient to use.

And then we of course have the part where every manufacturer has stopped, or is stopping ICE development. No reputable manufacturer would want to touch ICE, and an increase of it in motorsports, with a 10 foot pole.
It is a complicated argument, batteries and controllers are not environmentally great, coupled with energy production for electrical charging (which potentially require multi-hundred year strategies) mean that EV’s are not the end game that many assume.
The answer lies in a mixture of solutions, most of which are not applicable to motorsport.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

User avatar
Zynerji
107
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

So, why does it matter AT ALL for this sport?

Oh, because image and PR spin > Fans.

PS: I'd also jump on Nitromethane as well. Taming that fuel for power and reliability would be a great challenge for the teams.

NA1.5L i5 with a 18k cap and nitromethane would suit me just fine.

User avatar
BassVirolla
10
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:55 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post



Quite the same as we know, nevertheless.

User avatar
RedNEO
28
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:58 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post



Just as I thought. This is excellent news going forwards for the planet and for F1.

User avatar
mclaren111
249
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:49 am
Location: Shithole - South Africa

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Great news... Hope it can improve the sound of the engines at the same time... :D :D

User avatar
henry
315
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

F1 in its current form needs high energy density fuels and if they can help to develop CO2 neutral fuels then that seems a useful direction to go.

I’m not convinced by the marketing spiel but that doesn’t detract from the utility of this development effort.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

mzso
mzso
50
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

RedNEO wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:44 am
Just as I thought. This is excellent news going forwards for the planet and for F1.
I suspect it will only ever be a curiosity that F1 used. It's everything but a proven economically viable fuel.

User avatar
JordanMugen
68
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

wesley123 wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:15 pm
No reputable manufacturer would want to touch ICE, and an increase of it in motorsports, with a 10 foot pole.
Is Ferrari not a reputable manufacturer? :wink:

Italy wants to protect Ferrari and Lamborghini from a proposed future ban on internal-combustion engines enacted by the European Union, Bloomberg reported on Saturday. The Italian government is in talks with the EU about exempting the two supercar builders from a proposed phaseout of new internal-combustion vehicles announced in July, which would go into effect in 2035, according to the report.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/113 ... engine-ban

Though the Italian Government's position is quite laughable given the strong and essentially iron-clad "anti-ICE by 2032" policy that has been legislated the EU so far, with the full ICE ban by 2035 being a crown jewel of the regulation set.

The question is will other countries outside the EU block -- India, Brazil, South Africa, United States, Australia etc -- follow this ICE ban timeline or will they not, and does it matter if they don't (assuming the promised economies of scales of BEV and improvement in battery density for BEVs eventuate)?

For now, it seems a BEV or PHEV transition is happening much faster in countries that legislate towards it by taxing ICEs heavily (e.g., Denmark) than countries that do not tax ICEs heavily (e.g., Australia, possibly South Africa, United States apart from California, Saudi Arabia etc).

I wonder if Enzo Ferrari could have imagined the day when the European Parliament would have effectively been banning the V12 combustion engine in new production road cars by (WLTP & Euro 7) legislation?

Zynerji wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:02 am
I'd say a carbon-neutral fuel source is very modern. Then we can get back to the sound while being "green".
Aren't carbon-neutral fuels an extremely inefficient process, even if you use renewable electricity to manufacture the carbon-neutral fuel? It's much, much, much more efficient (for now) to just put the renewable electricity directly into the vehicle.

mzso
mzso
50
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:08 pm
Is Ferrari not a reputable manufacturer? :wink:
Certainly not. Only a luxury fashion company.

User avatar
JordanMugen
68
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

mzso wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:26 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:08 pm
Is Ferrari not a reputable manufacturer? :wink:
Certainly not. Only a luxury fashion company.
So it's good that Ferrari keep people employed but it's wrong that Ferrari keep people employed by building vehicles which poison the environment?

I take it you reject the notion of a V8 or V12 combustion engine as a form of theatre and entertainment, albeit a toxic kind of entertainment which contributes to global warming? Given the unacceptable nature of this entertainment, would you say it is inherently wrong and unacceptable for owners or journalists to take joyrides in noxious V8 or V12 Ferraris when they could be driving a socially acceptable zero emissions Nissan Leaf or VW id.3 (and not taking an unnecessary route on their favourite mountain road)?

Unncessary "joyride" journalist evaluation of Ferrari Roma high emissions V8 press car :(
Last edited by JordanMugen on Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:52 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
590
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:08 pm
.... It's much, much, much more efficient (for now) to just put the renewable electricity directly into the vehicle.
putting 'renewable electricity directly into the vehicle' prevents some better use ie heating by heat pumps

User avatar
JordanMugen
68
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:39 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:08 pm
.... It's much, much, much more efficient (for now) to just put the renewable electricity directly into the vehicle.
putting 'renewable electricity directly into the vehicle' prevents some better use ie heating by heat pumps
What's the cost on replacing old-fashioned furnace heating in snowbelt/rustbelt states, with (what us Medditerean climate folks would call) reverse cycle air conditioning aka heat pumps? :)

It is impressive that reverse cycle air conditioning can be approximately 300% efficient at moving heat due to the wonders of phase changes. :)

Here in desert climates (southern Australia) we also used what we call evaporative "air conditioning". Apparently Americans call these swamp coolers, and of course they only work in California or Nevada etc with low humidity -- they are not remotely effective in snowbelt states with humid summers! :)

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
590
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:41 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:39 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:08 pm
.... It's much, much, much more efficient (for now) to just put the renewable electricity directly into the vehicle.
putting 'renewable electricity directly into the vehicle' prevents some better use ie heating by heat pumps
What's the cost on replacing old-fashioned furnace heating in snowbelt/rustbelt states, with (what us Medditerean climate folks would call) reverse cycle air conditioning aka heat pumps? :) ....
what's the cost of not replacing old-fashioned furnace heating with heat pumps ? ...

the EU (that forced its citizens to have diesel cars) won't allow 'not replacing' .....
that would engender legal liabilities on multiple grounds

Rodak
Rodak
31
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:02 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

What's the cost on replacing old-fashioned furnace heating in snowbelt/rustbelt states, with (what us Mediterranean climate folks would call) reverse cycle air conditioning aka heat pumps?
In very cold areas heat pumps actually require back up electric heating, as the extraction of heat from very cold air is not efficient. The best heat pump systems incorporate a ground heat loop 6 feet or more below the frost line, drawing on the fairly constant temperature (45°- 50° F / 7°- 10° C) soil; these systems are very expensive though.