2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
Wouter
88
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Sieper wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:54 am
Thanks Etusch, good post and I often enjoy reading yours. I am between hope and fear for next race and indeed the championship. Let’s hope RBR really still is in the game.
Why shouldn't RBR be in the race anymore? Can you explain that? Why do you think that?
The Power of Honda!

Gillian
Gillian
0
Joined: Thu May 27, 2021 8:46 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

etusch wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:10 am
yener wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:54 am

But in Baku, Monaco and Austria the old tyre was used. And dont forget the update after Silverstone mercedes had. It suits them all great. And another thing is that RBR lost their flexing rear wing advantage.

1. The new Pirelli tyres suits the Merc more
2. RBR lost the flexing rear wing
3. Mercedes had an amazing update on the whole package (running bigger RW and still have massive PU speed)

This really has nothing do of getting the car in the right spot. Max had balance problems thats true, and maybe they will solve it with Newey being back, but i think its going to be a horrible weekend. Lets hope that im wrong
At the start of the season many forumer was thinking merc is best again and they were saying that the forumers who think otherwise will start to cry a few race later. But by now we saw that, even merc itself, cried about redbull's and Honda's performance over radio, over media and over fia. but there were not Redbull fans who are crying.
They tried to stop their aero package, tried to stop their engine performance, tried to stop their excellent pit stops. Many forumers still insists that mercedes is faster. But when you look it out as rescued from "this is mercedes, this is hamilton" brain frame you can see that mercedes is a little faster or maybe not at last few races after that much fia helps for them and very aggressive engine mapping ( or maybe illegal something with the engine, it not need to be big, it can be small and fia can close eyes for it, they showed that they are openly backing mercedes during whole season. Think about Alonso's Norris claim and Massi's redicilous answer. Everybody saw what Norris did at sochi and what Massi had said. He of course has much much more data about it but he kid us by saying there is not much data about it to panelise Norris.)
Now everybody is talking about merc's silverstone update and how good it was. It is very comic I think. Because yes, ham got pole or something like that but at sprint race that updates didn't helped him to catch Verstappen. You may say that they understand update better race by race. But it is clear that it was engine mapping or something different with the engine because they were faster at Q but not race. In Turkey they had bigger wings. If it was silverstone update which brings them performance then why bigger wings? In fact in sochi, Verstappen could fight easily with Ham if he hadn't start from back. Verstappen pace was not bad even pace of Perez.
Mercedes is there, ok. They put on their whole hand to the season. But their rivals still didn't open all they have.
I find it a bit difficult to understand what you are saying. Does this sum up what you mean?
  • Red Bull has been faster at the start of the season.
  • Mercedes reacted poorly on that by trying everything to slow down Red Bull.
  • FIA favours Mercedes by slowing down Red Bull and ignoring an (allegedly) illegal engine.
  • Mercedes is running their PU harder than before and can't turn it up even more.
  • Red Bull Honda have room to go faster.

The difference in performance has been small the entire season and it has shifted somewhat to Mercedes lately. It probably is a combination of new tires, setup woes/successes and Mercedes running their PU on the limit. I don't think Red Bull Honda is holding anything back. I do think Red Bull Honda is taking the 'safe' option regarding PU where Mercedes is taking a risk running them harder.

Verstappen said this about Red Bull Honda power:

"At this point in the championship I think everything that's on the car is the maximum, so I don't think there will be a lot of changes there," Verstappen told select media including RacingNews365.com.

"We don't have more power, we are at the limit."

Verstappen is also not expecting any further updates on the rest of the car.

"There's not so much coming, but we're always trying to do better, of course," the Dutchman said. "We have to do it with what we have at the moment and we try to get the best out of it.
https://racingnews365.com/verstappen-ho ... -the-limit

User avatar
etusch
84
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Gillian wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:47 pm


I find it a bit difficult to understand what you are saying. Does this sum up what you mean?
  • Red Bull has been faster at the start of the season.
  • Mercedes reacted poorly on that by trying everything to slow down Red Bull.
  • FIA favours Mercedes by slowing down Red Bull and ignoring an (allegedly) illegal engine.
  • Mercedes is running their PU harder than before and can't turn it up even more.
  • Red Bull Honda have room to go faster.

The difference in performance has been small the entire season and it has shifted somewhat to Mercedes lately. It probably is a combination of new tires, setup woes/successes and Mercedes running their PU on the limit. I don't think Red Bull Honda is holding anything back. I do think Red Bull Honda is taking the 'safe' option regarding PU where Mercedes is taking a risk running them harder.

Verstappen said this about Red Bull Honda power:

I think you understand quite well. Yes I am saying that Honda still plays safe and can go agressive and I think the news I shared before says that they will become faster car at Abu Dabhi. I understand from that comment of Masashi Yamamoto, they will open up all with the pu at last race.

You can think about Fia directive. They tried to slow down honda. What do you think about possibility of that that fia can do same for mercedes? but they are not doing. Maybe their aggressive mapping needs to be corrected by a directive by fia but what we saw from very beginning of season they are ignore if something against merc and immidiatly reacts if it is against redbull in a manner aiming slowing down redbull or honda.

Gillian
Gillian
0
Joined: Thu May 27, 2021 8:46 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Thank you I missed that post.

I am not sure what to make of it. On one hand you have the comments by Yamamoto which indeed seems to indicate they might run the PU harder end of this season. On the other hand you have Verstappen claiming there is not room for all that. I guess we will see in the next few weeks.

On the Mercedes PU, I am not so sure you can claim anything is illegal. If they choose to run their PU a lot harder giving them more power in the race, that's their choice. Nothing illegal about that. It's a balancing act all teams have to do, power vs reliability, risk vs reward... I can see what you mean, but personally I would not dare to make assumptions about it.

User avatar
Sieper
67
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Redbull did inquire, I do not believe there is nothing there (otherwise they wouldn't have done it) and yes, that FIA did choose not to investigate. RBR had a perfectly legal wing and the rules were changed. It was a principle thing. The wing does not have to comply with the rules, it may not bend. But that same principle is not valid for the frontwing. As a RBR fan that makes me suspect. It gives the impression FIA is more on the hand of one team. That has been sweeping everything clear for a decade almost. With an engine that was above the 2% parity rule by their own admission. FIA (again seems) to have been turning a blind eye on that too.

I cant help but have the impression that the teams (with an S behidn it) that spent most in F1 also have the most to say. Not bribing offcourse, just a contributor to the legacy of F1 by spending money on their teams.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

XRayF1
XRayF1
3
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:08 am

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Sieper, could you please point out to me where you saw that MGP actually said they run their PU above the 2% mark?

Just being curious

LaplacesDemon
LaplacesDemon
0
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:57 am

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Sieper wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:42 pm
Redbull did inquire, I do not believe there is nothing there (otherwise they wouldn't have done it) and yes, that FIA did choose not to investigate. RBR had a perfectly legal wing and the rules were changed. It was a principle thing. The wing does not have to comply with the rules, it may not bend. But that same principle is not valid for the frontwing. As a RBR fan that makes me suspect. It gives the impression FIA is more on the hand of one team. That has been sweeping everything clear for a decade almost. With an engine that was above the 2% parity rule by their own admission. FIA (again seems) to have been turning a blind eye on that too.

I cant help but have the impression that the teams (with an S behidn it) that spent most in F1 also have the most to say. Not bribing offcourse, just a contributor to the legacy of F1 by spending money on their teams.
And what do you think they could have done regarding parity that was not BOP? Why is this such a big deal anyway, aero disparity has always been much greater than PU disparity.

I think fans of a particular team will always have a very subjective interpretation of FIA decisions but objectively I believe they have done a decent job of keeping everyone in check - see Ferrari engine saga, Merc engine mode ban, RBR wings etc.

Finally, why is it people suspect engine related foul play now, when engine performance is the closest it has ever been in the V6 era?

User avatar
Sieper
67
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

XRayF1 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:00 pm
Sieper, could you please point out to me where you saw that MGP actually said they run their PU above the 2% mark?

Just being curious
It was in an interview with a (ex?) high ranked employee, in the news some months back. I don’t keep bookmarks. Just a more casual type reader. Can’t help you with a direct link.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

User avatar
Sieper
67
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

LaplacesDemon wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:17 pm
Sieper wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:42 pm
Redbull did inquire, I do not believe there is nothing there (otherwise they wouldn't have done it) and yes, that FIA did choose not to investigate. RBR had a perfectly legal wing and the rules were changed. It was a principle thing. The wing does not have to comply with the rules, it may not bend. But that same principle is not valid for the frontwing. As a RBR fan that makes me suspect. It gives the impression FIA is more on the hand of one team. That has been sweeping everything clear for a decade almost. With an engine that was above the 2% parity rule by their own admission. FIA (again seems) to have been turning a blind eye on that too.

I cant help but have the impression that the teams (with an S behidn it) that spent most in F1 also have the most to say. Not bribing offcourse, just a contributor to the legacy of F1 by spending money on their teams.
And what do you think they could have done regarding parity that was not BOP? Why is this such a big deal anyway, aero disparity has always been much greater than PU disparity.

I think fans of a particular team will always have a very subjective interpretation of FIA decisions but objectively I believe they have done a decent job of keeping everyone in check - see Ferrari engine saga, Merc engine mode ban, RBR wings etc.

Finally, why is it people suspect engine related foul play now, when engine performance is the closest it has ever been in the V6 era?
For one I don’t agree that aero disparity has been greater than PU. Look only what happened to Ferrari when they lost engine performance. I also don’t believe FIA did a decent job there. It was allowed to go on way too long (years) and in the end when it finally was disallowed this also hurt Ferrari very much. It should have been policed earlier.

Look, we are now really off topic but the feeling exists (with me, just me personally) that the bigger spender the team is the more FIA is inclined to not upset it.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

LaplacesDemon
LaplacesDemon
0
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:57 am

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Sieper wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:25 pm

For one I don’t agree that aero disparity has been greater than PU. Look only what happened to Ferrari when they lost engine performance. I also don’t believe FIA did a decent job there. It was allowed to go on way too long (years) and in the end when it finally was disallowed this also hurt Ferrari very much. It should have been policed earlier.

Look, we are now really off topic but the feeling exists (with me, just me personally) that the bigger spender the team is the more FIA is inclined to not upset it.
You only need to look as far as last year to see teams being in excess of 2 seconds slower than teams using the same engines.

You know I don't think I disagree with what you are saying regarding how FIA treats big spenders. However, the differences between the budgets of the top 3 spenders are so small I find it hard to argue one would get preferential treatment for this reason alone.

User avatar
Sieper
67
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

LaplacesDemon wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:55 pm
Sieper wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:25 pm

For one I don’t agree that aero disparity has been greater than PU. Look only what happened to Ferrari when they lost engine performance. I also don’t believe FIA did a decent job there. It was allowed to go on way too long (years) and in the end when it finally was disallowed this also hurt Ferrari very much. It should have been policed earlier.

Look, we are now really off topic but the feeling exists (with me, just me personally) that the bigger spender the team is the more FIA is inclined to not upset it.
You only need to look as far as last year to see teams being in excess of 2 seconds slower than teams using the same engines.

You know I don't think I disagree with what you are saying regarding how FIA treats big spenders. However, the differences between the budgets of the top 3 spenders are so small I find it hard to argue one would get preferential treatment for this reason alone.
You can’t compare the aero of a small spender to a big spender. Ofcourse the difference is only comparable between teams that are operating in the same budget range.

I do think that Daimler has been spending quite a lot more over the last decade, their brand image, sales of AMG (branded) cars made it worthwhile/important. Redbull is just a brand that aims to operate at the top level in thrilling sports. I don’t believe the budgets were truly the same. And even if they were in the ball park for the team/car, Renault certainly wasn’t spending what Mercedes HPP was.
Last edited by Sieper on Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

aral
aral
26
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:49 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

This is not a mercedes thread. Please discuss Merc power units on the dedicated thread

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
496
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

yener wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:03 am
Jaisonas wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:12 pm
Everyone's here has been on a massive damage control level these past few weeks but as i see it, its not looking great at all.
Anyways sky sports figured out how Merc got their top speed advantage and it doesnt seem like something that can be just tuned in in a few races.
https://streamable.com/j0vhsx
This is BS, RBR uses the same "trick"
Nope. That's just regular braking zone pitching forward of the chassis.
The Merc does a sudden squat at about mid-straight.

It is very unusual the way it does it. Normally we would see gradual squats as the speed goes up.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

User avatar
godlameroso
307
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

I was watching Checo's videogame onboard lap, something struck me, the man is clearly not used to the game's input lag, that's probably why he missed his braking points. No such lag in real life, I wonder if having that input lag flexibility inadvertently creates sharper reflexes, because not only are you accounting for delay in input, you also account for delay in output. It's subtle, hard to spot, like the difference between 60hz and 120hz refresh rate. The difference in refresh rate is only 8 ms but to the human eye it's very noticeable.
Saishū kōnā

User avatar
Wouter
88
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Red Bull Racing Honda

Howdy y'all! Red Bull Racing Honda are back Stateside for the United States Grand Prix - our first visit since 2019.
And for the Bulls' latest challenge, Max Verstappen and Sergio Perez are joined by Alex Albon for a hotlap challenge
while answering a series of questions.
The winner is the person with the fastest time and the most correct answers. Let's see how they get on!
The Power of Honda!