2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

[west52keep64]

Wasn't Sauber DQ'd from a race due to an infringed rear wing?

This should be an auto DQ for the Merc car.

Correct, Sauber were disqualified from the session where the car was deemed to have run illegally. The same will happen to Mercedes, which will mean a disqualification from qualifying. They will not be disqualified from the entire event, there's no precedent for that.

[dans79]

What do you mean no precedent?
I have still not seen any argument on how this is any different from Vettel touching cars many times before (under the assumption that Max did not damage Lewis's car - that would make a difference, naturally). There seems to be plenty of precedent for not penalising mere touching.

metaphor

How many people have broken the speed limit and gotten away with it? How many people have broken the speed limit and caused an accident and gotten away with it?

[Bill_Kar]

I think, apart from what the result of the investigation is going to be, it was crazy stupid from Max to do this.

I'm not claiming he damaged the wing, of course, but he gave Mercedes an unprovable claim. And, in law procedures in general, that MAY be enough to not condemn them.

[godlameroso]

So Max tuned Mercedes rear wing by touching it? He healed the Mercedes with his patented lion's paw wing adjustment technique. Here Hamilton, take an extra 2 tenths to keep the race interesting.

[west52keep64]

I think, apart from what the result of the investigation is going to be, it was crazy stupid from Max to do this.

I'm not claiming he damaged the wing, of course, but he gave Mercedes an unprovable claim. And, in law procedures in general, that MAY be enough to not condemn them.

It would indeed be a massive own goal for Red Bull if Verstappen's actions do somehow "clear" Mercedes of any technical infringement. It does seem unlikely though.

[Bill_Kar]

I think, apart from what the result of the investigation is going to be, it was crazy stupid from Max to do this.

I'm not claiming he damaged the wing, of course, but he gave Mercedes an unprovable claim. And, in law procedures in general, that MAY be enough to not condemn them.

It would indeed be a massive own goal for Red Bull if Verstappen's actions do somehow "clear" Mercedes of any technical infringement. It does seem unlikely though.

Yeah, I also think Hamilton will be DSQ and Max will get away with a reprimand. Don't get me wrong.

It was just an unnecessary move. The drama would be over by now.

[DChemTech]

What do you mean no precedent?
I have still not seen any argument on how this is any different from Vettel touching cars many times before (under the assumption that Max did not damage Lewis's car - that would make a difference, naturally). There seems to be plenty of precedent for not penalising mere touching.

metaphor

How many people have broken the speed limit and gotten away with it? How many people have broken the speed limit and caused an accident and gotten away with it?

...

I was clear about the assumption of 'not causing an accident', right?

[PlatinumZealot]

what is interesting is that after climbing out of the bull, max took off his gloves and looked at his own rear wing. then he walked over to the merc and "touched" the wing of that, in the same positions. so, how did max know to compare the two wings? did he observe it during quali? or was he told from the pits that there was something possibly wrong?

It was brought up earlier in the thread and it's mentioned in an AMuS article for example.
tl:dr RBR believe that there's some flexibility built into the rear wing (flap?) of the Merc and brought this to the FIA's attention prior to Q, Merc then said there's nothing to protest and ran the wing anyways. Max might have wanted to see if there's more 'give' in one part? Only he (and maybe RB) knows what he was actually doing.
It's likely that the two matters are unrelated even though they pertain to the same part of the car.

Interestingly, the area of the flap in question is the same as the what RedBull taped up in Mexico.

If a "switch" theory is to be believed and both teams are "cheating," by touching both wings, Max could have deactivated RedBull's switch and activated Mercedes's own.

[politburo]

So Max tuned Mercedes rear wing by touching it? He healed the Mercedes with his patented lion's paw wing adjustment technique. Here Hamilton, take an extra 2 tenths to keep the race interesting.

I'm liking the satire. Lol. Kinda shows why this stuff is ridiculous - touching the carbon-fiber wing can make it fail the test not all the straining from the dynamic loads of cutting through air and stuff.

Imo If they failed the test just fine them and make them fit a compliant wing and then everyone moves on.

[Restomaniac]

I think we can all now say this isn’t a standard open and close case of DQ. It’s taking far too long for that.

[grubschumi13]

Ok I understand that but it comes down to the 'touching' part.

If the cars have to be moved in any way then the car has been touched.

Is there a gray area in this respect ?

No, because the rules don't state there's "no touching". This is a misconception being spread for some reason.

The rules are simply this:

2.5.1 Inside the Parc Fermé, only the officials assigned may
enter. No operation, checking, tuning or repair is allowed
unless authorised by the same officials or by the applicable
regulations.

You can touch/push the car. I guess changing/tuning/repair isn't allowed or inspection physically (it has to have enough physical contact). Tomorrow is a driver touches his nose of the car, he doesn't fall into this clause. People stand on their car even - Let us no go over-board.

Verstappen will get a reprimand @ best for this - A very minor grid penalty (2/3 place) if FIA decide to be insanely biased & severe to favour Hamilton/Mercedes.

Mercedes/Hamilton though are surely going to start from the pit-lane due to an illegal rear wing which has to be changed. So how many places an Lewis make up? Maybe he goes to P9-P10 odd from the back behind the Mclarens & Ferrari. Then gets a 5 place penalty & starts 14-15th. Realistically without rain or changing conditions, he can finish P7-P8 types of @ best P4-P5 if Mercedes shows crazy race pace.

Verstappen can get 25 + 3 (Sprint) - 28 points (Leaving fastest lap). This is a race where Verstappen can me up 15-20 points & go to Saudi with a 35-40 point lead which will be tough to make up in 3 races - 3/4th position in the last 3 races would be enough. If Lewis finishes P8/P9, then the advantage becomes 19 + 25/26 = 45 odd. Almost insurmountable. He can wrap up the title in Qatar by having 2 numbers of P3 finishes (Behind Lewis & Bottas).

This penalty will be crucial for the world title & will aggravate Hamilton's 5 place ICE penalty !

I suspect they will penalize both. It's a slam dunk for Lewis but to make the championship closer, they will also do Max. Indeed I suspect they will penalize Max significantly to put him at the back. Mercedes and Lewis will not be punished because its not possible to prove that Max touching the car did not create the discrepancy. Mercedes will be ordered to change the wing and start from the pit-lane effectively also putting him at the back.

Or they will let both off the hook. I'm sure the political cogs are in motion. It is highly unlikely that Max caused Lewis' wing discrepancy however Mercedes will be desperate for Max to get a penalty because it was a breach of the rules and will be doing all they can and more to make sure he also suffers a penalty.

All in all it was a blunder by Max to have touched Lewis' car and put himself in this situation.

[Laserguru]

Can’t believe it: Mercedes indeed claimed Max damaged the rear wing (gptoday quotes Marco on f1-insider). SUPERMAX it is!

[politburo]

I think, apart from what the result of the investigation is going to be, it was crazy stupid from Max to do this.

I'm not claiming he damaged the wing, of course, but he gave Mercedes an unprovable claim. And, in law procedures in general, that MAY be enough to not condemn them.

It would indeed be a massive own goal for Red Bull if Verstappen's actions do somehow "clear" Mercedes of any technical infringement. It does seem unlikely though.

Yeah, I also think Hamilton will be DSQ and Max will get away with a reprimand. Don't get me wrong.

It was just an unnecessary move. The drama would be over by now.

DSQ with 2 races yet to be run, that's tough. Just make them fit another one, which probably means a parc ferme infringement at worst, then move on.

[politburo]

If Max is penalised annd goes to the back they must just take a new ICE. It's intriguing how grid penalties are served in the main race not the sprint race, perhaps to maximise the effect of the penalty?.

[pantherxxx]

If Mercedes really claims that Max changed the setup with one hand in under a second, they're making fools from themselves. It's physically impossible, it's 3X harder to bend carbon fiber than steel.