Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
atanatizante
109
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:33 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

gruntguru wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:22 am
atanatizante wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:59 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:51 pm
yes a cubic metre of MC air contains 212 gm of oxygen (77% of the sea level amount)
I think you confused volume percentage within a gases composition with mass percentage due to altitude/pressure ...

Indeed, both at sea level and altitude we have the same 20.947 volume % of O2 in 1 cubic meter of air, as you correct above stated. But this volume weights differently at different altitudes/pressures due to the ideal gas law: pV=nRT. Thus, at the same volume when pressure lowers due to altitude we have fewer molecules so less mass or weight of O2 as Mattchu said in another post above ...

Anyway, no one has an idea how the ICE would cope with the new air intake plenum here in Mexico, bearing in mind it was designed to provide cooler air hence feeding more O2 for the engine?
Tommy is not confused. The percentage is not the correct term for specifying the number of molecules or grams of oxygen in a given volume of air. The percentage is a dimensionless term ie g/100g or L/100L.
From maths point of view, I agree!

...
gruntguru wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:22 am

...

OTOH if Mercedes has taken advantage of the cooler intake air and reduced compressor size to improve power at sea level, they are back to square one when moving to high altitude.
I don`t follow you here and maybe the reason for that is due to English is not my native language. So be kind to me, will you?

I would like you to be more detailed about this matter... because from what you are stating, I understand that what do you gain at sea level (x%), the same percentage you should lose at altitude regardless of which high is/air pressure is? And, had I`m not wrong, I don`t think it`s correct from the physics perspective ...
Jesus

gruntguru
gruntguru
564
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

atanatizante wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:04 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:22 am
OTOH if Mercedes has taken advantage of the cooler intake air and reduced compressor size to improve power at sea level, they are back to square one when moving to high altitude.
I don`t follow you here and maybe the reason for that is due to English is not my native language. So be kind to me, will you?

I would like you to be more detailed about this matter... because from what you are stating, I understand that what do you gain at sea level (x%), the same percentage you should lose at altitude regardless of which high is/air pressure is? And, had I`m not wrong, I don`t think it`s correct from the physics perspective ...
I will expand a little. If Merc found a way to make the intake air cooler and didn't change anything else, the engine would be better able to cope with altitude.

OTOH, the compressor would now have excess capacity at sea level and a small performance gain could be obtained by making the compressor slightly smaller. The high altitude performance would suffer.
je suis charlie

atanatizante
109
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:33 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

gruntguru wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:31 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:04 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:22 am
OTOH if Mercedes has taken advantage of the cooler intake air and reduced compressor size to improve power at sea level, they are back to square one when moving to high altitude.
I don`t follow you here and maybe the reason for that is due to English is not my native language. So be kind to me, will you?

I would like you to be more detailed about this matter... because from what you are stating, I understand that what do you gain at sea level (x%), the same percentage you should lose at altitude regardless of which high is/air pressure is? And, had I`m not wrong, I don`t think it`s correct from the physics perspective ...
I will expand a little. If Merc found a way to make the intake air cooler and didn't change anything else, the engine would be better able to cope with the altitude.

OTOH, the compressor would now have excess capacity at sea level and a small performance gain could be obtained by making the compressor slightly smaller. The high altitude performance would suffer.
Ok, thank you! It makes sense...
Jesus

PlatinumZealot
556
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Combustion engines in Mexico city have been recorded at 92% of their combustion efficiency at sea level.
The human lungs also show 90% of O2 concetration vesus that at sea-level.

What does that tell us? There are some more other mechanics at play here than just ambient pressure.
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nokivasara
nokivasara
2
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:53 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:09 pm
Combustion engines in Mexico city have been recorded at 92% of their combustion efficiency at sea level.
The human lungs also show 90% of O2 concetration vesus that at sea-level.

What does that tell us? There are some more other mechanics at play here than just ambient pressure.
Shouldn't the combustion engine have a higher efficiency compared to us humans with regards to the turbo?

PlatinumZealot
556
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

nokivasara wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:49 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:09 pm
Combustion engines in Mexico city have been recorded at 92% of their combustion efficiency at sea level.
The human lungs also show 90% of O2 concetration vesus that at sea-level.

What does that tell us? There are some more other mechanics at play here than just ambient pressure.
Shouldn't the combustion engine have a higher efficiency compared to us humans with regards to the turbo?
Humans lungs would be equivalent to a variable displacement engine. Also Human lungs have a high level of internal re-circulation. So I guess that would explain it.
It wasn't said what type of engine aspiration in the article (Sorry I lost the link). But it's easy to google.
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☄️ Myth of the five suns. ☄️

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Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
627
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:09 pm
Combustion engines in Mexico city have been recorded at 92% of their combustion efficiency at sea level.
..... What does that tell us? ......
imo of course ....
it tells us that .....
some of the people who use the term combustion engines also .....
use the term combustion efficiency when they are thinking of indicated thermal efficiency

and .... combustion efficiency has a lot to do with combustion inconsistency
and .... F1 engines have 2 combustion sites - upstream of the exhaust port and downstream of the exhaust port
and .... if there was some underlying fundamental problem how did aviation do what it did ?

the FIA and old ladies (and some younger people) don't always seem to know that .....
internal combustion doesn't mean there's a 'combustion' engine on the inside (not the outside) of the vehicle
internal combustion means the combustion happens inside the engine (not outside - as with the steam engine)
in so-called English there's such a thing as a heat engine - but no such thing as a combustion engine

michl420
michl420
20
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:08 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Looks like this engine has extrem power, but only for 2-3 races.

TimW
TimW
36
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:07 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Must say that I am stunned by what a new Mercedes engine can bring. Gain 15 places in the sprint race and a dominant victory from P10.

('Helped' of course great drive from Lewis)

F1NAC
166
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:35 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

TimW wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:36 pm
Must say that I am stunned by what a new Mercedes engine can bring. Gain 15 places in the sprint race and a dominant victory from P10.

('Helped' of course great drive from Lewis)
That reminded me on 2017. Bolted fresh engine with just like 2 races to go flat out. woah.

toraabe
toraabe
12
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:42 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Exactly

Now we know what that engine is capable of. Now the work to make it last longer than today.

Anyway. Should I reckon at least 40 hp up on the rest at full beans?

One and Only
6
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:41 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

How is it possible to run your ICE so much harder with limited fuel flow? Last time someone had ICE performance like this there was fuel flow sensor saga. And that ICE could race for 7 races.
"Don't you know there ain't no devil,﻿ it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

restless
restless
18
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 8:12 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

good question.
Either Mercedes made superior drag reduction somehow, or this engine has more than 100-150hp advantage - with same fuel flow, that would be what, 60% efficiency?
All based on Amus, that top speed without DRS was 15km/h higher for Hamilton

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

One and Only wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:01 am
How is it possible to run your ICE so much harder with limited fuel flow? Last time someone had ICE performance like this there was fuel flow sensor saga. And that ICE could race for 7 races.
Because the ICE is normally run more conservatively in order to last 7 or 8 races. They'll run to a limited max revs, for example, and in this ICE they might be saying "you can have some extra revs" which will help give a higher top speed (gearing allowing, of course).
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

restless
restless
18
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 8:12 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:40 am
One and Only wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:01 am
How is it possible to run your ICE so much harder with limited fuel flow? Last time someone had ICE performance like this there was fuel flow sensor saga. And that ICE could race for 7 races.
Because the ICE is normally run more conservatively in order to last 7 or 8 races. They'll run to a limited max revs, for example, and in this ICE they might be saying "you can have some extra revs" which will help give a higher top speed (gearing allowing, of course).
The question is not of running harder.
Its about how they get so much better efficiency with same fuel amount