Escalation in race and team threads

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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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west52keep64 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:55 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:38 pm
Interesting to see a new user has arrived. They have posted three posts in the month they've been on the forum and have a -5 rating already. It would have been -7 but they appear to have a sympathiser for their fan/hater rhetoric.

Do new users get any form of checks carried out? Should a new user with such a posting history not be flagged up and given a cooling off period? That sort of negative posting history must be a red flag alert, surely?
The rating system doesn't appear to be a reliable system to gauge this kind of thing. One of the most disruptive users in the race threads has a positive rating greater than 20, and somehow seems to accumulate votes despite making mostly combative posts. As you suggest, there does appear to be a "system" with users sharing votes between each other to bring their ratings up. Or perhaps they are the same person with multiple accounts?
A total of 3 posts from the user, one of which attracted a nett -5 rating on its own. That's not people ganging up, that's someone turning up and jumping in with both feet and caring not a jot for the established culture of the forum. It smacks of a burn account set up specifically to troll. Which is why I asked if such behaviour is flagged by the system and then monitored by the mods. It's a simple enough question for one of the mod team to answer, I'd have thought.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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west52keep64
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:26 am
A total of 3 posts from the user, one of which attracted a nett -5 rating on its own. That's not people ganging up, that's someone turning up and jumping in with both feet and caring not a jot for the established culture of the forum. It smacks of a burn account set up specifically to troll. Which is why I asked if such behaviour is flagged by the system and then monitored by the mods. It's a simple enough question for one of the mod team to answer, I'd have thought.
Hmm I see what you mean. My point was more, ratings alone won't solve the issues, as many of the trouble makers would remain. However, I do agree the scenario you describe should probably have triggered some kind of ban.

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hollus
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:38 pm
Interesting to see a new user has arrived. They have posted three posts in the month they've been on the forum and have a -5 rating already. It would have been -7 but they appear to have a sympathiser for their fan/hater rhetoric.

Do new users get any form of checks carried out? Should a new user with such a posting history not be flagged up and given a cooling off period? That sort of negative posting history must be a red flag alert, surely?
There is no form check, not in an automated way.
A post with -5 votes, though, lights up like a christmas tree in a particular screen listing all recent votes. And that in a new user would be manually checked if noticed.

The thing is, I cannot find this new user with 3 posts snd that -5 post… some info is in conflict here…

Please, PM me the name or a link to the post and I’ll look at it tonight.
I would like to see a paleontologist.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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hollus wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:52 am
Please, PM me the name or a link to the post and I’ll look at it tonight.
PM sent with a link to the post which also includes the poster's name.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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hollus
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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Hi JAF.

So thank you for the direct link. I missed it on my phone.
Short answer: we missed it. Now in the computer, it does light up like a Christmas tree, but not all mods look regularly at that page.
Fell free to flag such situations, we will look at it if flagged.

That said, the user has 3 posts. 2 completely harmless. The third, an opinion, reasonably well argued, with caveats...

"his speed advantage was less driver, more car. Even Lando mentioned that Lewis didn't have to work for it at all. Will be interesting to see what happens with their rear wing, they got caught with one technical infringement but Redbull has already said they know that something else is happening, wether that is legal or not of course is another matter. But Lewis isn't the reason he ran through the field, sure he's great but his car has a massive top speed advantage"

That, posted after the sprint race, on saturday... sounds like a reasonable theory. Possibly a conspiracy theory? It is in the eyes of the beholder.

Is he saying that Lewis is slow? No (actually he praises him, look carefully).
Is he saying that the wing is illegal? He is saying maybe, he even insinuates that it might well be legal.
Is he saying that the car has something on it? Well, the engine story that surfaced later fits.
And that is it. No insults, no flippant comments, only well argued reasonable doubt.

Now, the fact that this post attracts a -5 rep (none form the PMr)... That is, honestly, a bit troubling. No wonder we have escalation is this is the reaction. This is perceived like a post in enemy territory (Mercedes thread) because it qualifies a super-success from Lewis as maybe partly due to the car.

This should be obvious in a debate forum, but apparently it bears repeating:
There is no "our" zone, there is no "enemy territory" and (I dream) there should be no enemies. A few people are determined to see enemies and turn everything into us vs them everywhere.

No, the Mercedes team thread is not a place where somewhat negative comments about Mercedes or Lewis are not allowed. (But keep them civil).

No, the Red Bull team thread is not a place where somewhat negative comments about Red Bull or Max are not allowed. (But keep them civil).


Well argued, non repetitive, civil posts are welcome everywhere. Please do not try to shut down perceived enemies.
Some posts are real trolling. We try to fight those. This was not one of them, and it does not appear like a troll account.

But downvoting that post 5 times... the escalation is on you 5, guys (actually 7).
(Very symmetrical examples are regularly found in the the Red Bull thread).
I would like to see a paleontologist.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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hollus, as I mentioned in the PM, I wasn't worried about the specific post by the user - we've all seen much more inflammatory stuff! I was only interested/concerned about how/if new users with low numbers of posts but very poor ratings are picked up and checked by the mod team.

We can all, I'm sure, see how someone could join the forum and troll-bomb it to create big arguments to the detriment of the forum and then run away. If the system is able to pick out such behaviour and allow early mod intervention then that's great. If not, perhaps the system should be changed to help the mods and thus improve the user experience for all.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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hollus
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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I know JAF, sorry if it came out in a different way.
I was only interested/concerned about how/if new users with low numbers of posts but very poor ratings are picked up and checked by the mod team
to that particular question, the answer is: manually and in an spotty way. We might miss many such instances.
I would like to see a paleontologist.

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coaster
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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My opinion is to scrap up/down voting and swap to user experience level rating based on technical expertise.
If a user has no technical interest or inclination towards it, a form of trolling punishment could be locking them out of the tech areas and leave them with the fanboys.
But redeemable, were all human, offputting experiences are commonplace online and not exclusive to f1tech.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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coaster wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:07 pm
My opinion is to scrap up/down voting and swap to user experience level rating based on technical expertise.
If a user has no technical interest or inclination towards it, a form of trolling punishment could be locking them out of the tech areas and leave them with the fanboys.
But redeemable, were all human, offputting experiences are commonplace online and not exclusive to f1tech.
This. =D>

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Steven
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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coaster wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:07 pm
My opinion is to scrap up/down voting and swap to user experience level rating based on technical expertise.
If a user has no technical interest or inclination towards it, a form of trolling punishment could be locking them out of the tech areas and leave them with the fanboys.
But redeemable, were all human, offputting experiences are commonplace online and not exclusive to f1tech.
How would you imagine this exactly?
A user rating, like we have now. Let's say we all start at 0, how will people go up or down?
Or did I misunderstand?

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codetower
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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Steven wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:29 pm
coaster wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:07 pm
My opinion is to scrap up/down voting and swap to user experience level rating based on technical expertise.
If a user has no technical interest or inclination towards it, a form of trolling punishment could be locking them out of the tech areas and leave them with the fanboys.
But redeemable, were all human, offputting experiences are commonplace online and not exclusive to f1tech.
How would you imagine this exactly?
A user rating, like we have now. Let's say we all start at 0, how will people go up or down?
Or did I misunderstand?
How will this affect a user without any "technical ratings"? For example, I love the technical talk, yet admittedly have little technical knowledge compared to some here on the forum. Would I be excluded from the tech sections?

As far as ratings, in my opinion they become a popularity contest at times more than an actual value system. I can probably go into a Mercedes thread and say something about how much better Hamilton is compared to Verstappen with little substance to my post and get a bunch of upvotes. Same in reverse (in an RB forum talking about Ver). All-in-all I still think its the best F1 forum out there, but I think ideas such as the one above are a great starting point on how to improve it.
Success is a lousy teacher. It seduces smart people into thinking they can't lose.

SmallSoldier
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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hollus wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:27 pm
Hi JAF.

So thank you for the direct link. I missed it on my phone.
Short answer: we missed it. Now in the computer, it does light up like a Christmas tree, but not all mods look regularly at that page.
Fell free to flag such situations, we will look at it if flagged.

That said, the user has 3 posts. 2 completely harmless. The third, an opinion, reasonably well argued, with caveats...

"his speed advantage was less driver, more car. Even Lando mentioned that Lewis didn't have to work for it at all. Will be interesting to see what happens with their rear wing, they got caught with one technical infringement but Redbull has already said they know that something else is happening, wether that is legal or not of course is another matter. But Lewis isn't the reason he ran through the field, sure he's great but his car has a massive top speed advantage"

That, posted after the sprint race, on saturday... sounds like a reasonable theory. Possibly a conspiracy theory? It is in the eyes of the beholder.

Is he saying that Lewis is slow? No (actually he praises him, look carefully).
Is he saying that the wing is illegal? He is saying maybe, he even insinuates that it might well be legal.
Is he saying that the car has something on it? Well, the engine story that surfaced later fits.
And that is it. No insults, no flippant comments, only well argued reasonable doubt.

Now, the fact that this post attracts a -5 rep (none form the PMr)... That is, honestly, a bit troubling. No wonder we have escalation is this is the reaction. This is perceived like a post in enemy territory (Mercedes thread) because it qualifies a super-success from Lewis as maybe partly due to the car.

This should be obvious in a debate forum, but apparently it bears repeating:
There is no "our" zone, there is no "enemy territory" and (I dream) there should be no enemies. A few people are determined to see enemies and turn everything into us vs them everywhere.

No, the Mercedes team thread is not a place where somewhat negative comments about Mercedes or Lewis are not allowed. (But keep them civil).

No, the Red Bull team thread is not a place where somewhat negative comments about Red Bull or Max are not allowed. (But keep them civil).


Well argued, non repetitive, civil posts are welcome everywhere. Please do not try to shut down perceived enemies.
Some posts are real trolling. We try to fight those. This was not one of them, and it does not appear like a troll account.

But downvoting that post 5 times... the escalation is on you 5, guys (actually 7).
(Very symmetrical examples are regularly found in the the Red Bull thread).
Your point in regards to the Team Threads is spot on… Unluckily, those threads end up becoming “Fan Zones” and unluckily any post that is perceived as “against the team”, regardless if it is a well thought comment, if perceived as negative by the fans of such teams, it gets downvoted.

And it’s a shame because it makes the forum lose part of it essence, which is discussing about F1 and it’s teams.

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Wouter
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:02 pm
hollus wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:27 pm
Hi JAF.

So thank you for the direct link. I missed it on my phone.
Short answer: we missed it. Now in the computer, it does light up like a Christmas tree, but not all mods look regularly at that page.
Fell free to flag such situations, we will look at it if flagged.

That said, the user has 3 posts. 2 completely harmless. The third, an opinion, reasonably well argued, with caveats...

"his speed advantage was less driver, more car. Even Lando mentioned that Lewis didn't have to work for it at all. Will be interesting to see what happens with their rear wing, they got caught with one technical infringement but Redbull has already said they know that something else is happening, wether that is legal or not of course is another matter. But Lewis isn't the reason he ran through the field, sure he's great but his car has a massive top speed advantage"

That, posted after the sprint race, on saturday... sounds like a reasonable theory. Possibly a conspiracy theory? It is in the eyes of the beholder.

Is he saying that Lewis is slow? No (actually he praises him, look carefully).
Is he saying that the wing is illegal? He is saying maybe, he even insinuates that it might well be legal.
Is he saying that the car has something on it? Well, the engine story that surfaced later fits.
And that is it. No insults, no flippant comments, only well argued reasonable doubt.

Now, the fact that this post attracts a -5 rep (none form the PMr)... That is, honestly, a bit troubling. No wonder we have escalation is this is the reaction. This is perceived like a post in enemy territory (Mercedes thread) because it qualifies a super-success from Lewis as maybe partly due to the car.

This should be obvious in a debate forum, but apparently it bears repeating:
There is no "our" zone, there is no "enemy territory" and (I dream) there should be no enemies. A few people are determined to see enemies and turn everything into us vs them everywhere.

No, the Mercedes team thread is not a place where somewhat negative comments about Mercedes or Lewis are not allowed. (But keep them civil).

No, the Red Bull team thread is not a place where somewhat negative comments about Red Bull or Max are not allowed. (But keep them civil).


Well argued, non repetitive, civil posts are welcome everywhere. Please do not try to shut down perceived enemies.
Some posts are real trolling. We try to fight those. This was not one of them, and it does not appear like a troll account.

But downvoting that post 5 times... the escalation is on you 5, guys (actually 7).
(Very symmetrical examples are regularly found in the the Red Bull thread).
Your point in regards to the Team Threads is spot on… Unluckily, those threads end up becoming “Fan Zones” and unluckily any post that is perceived as “against the team”, regardless if it is a well thought comment, if perceived as negative by the fans of such teams, it gets downvoted.

And it’s a shame because it makes the forum lose part of it essence, which is discussing about F1 and it’s teams.
The whole problem with up- and downvoting has been solved in one go by adding the name of the voter to the vote.
Then people think twice before voting. I have seen this on other forums.
The Power of Honda!

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AeroDynamic
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Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:25 am
Location: La règle du jeu

Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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These guys are right. Voting down is a useless metric. Since people use it for personal problems and expressing displeasure of the post not promoting a good perception of something they wanna protect, nobody knows if an opinion is factual or not until someone responds and asserts/provides the right information.

This thread discussion proves it, as one member was mentioned with -5 negged but his posts were just contrary point of views to some pissed fans :lol:

Anonymous votes are abused too, and also, why do the staff allow people to attack / get personal with each other in those feedback votes? it should either be allowed everywhere, or not at all anywhere.

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hollus
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:53 pm
...why do the staff allow people to attack / get personal with each other in those feedback votes? it should either be allowed everywhere, or not at all anywhere.
It is not allowed. And if nasty enough, they get acted on, has happened many times. They are hard to see, though, unless reported.
I would like to see a paleontologist.