2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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zibby43
zibby43
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Marty_Y wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:49 pm
Lewis Hamilton's Onboard Pole Lap | 2021 Qatar Grand Prix |

That was one to remember.

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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mstar wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:58 pm
IS this a different wing configuration which doesn't give the reduced drag? the straight line pace seems on-par with RB. I am a bit miffed if this is due to the high speed corners which they cannot use the wing and flex configuration at high speed.
Same wing.

Mark Hughes destroys the RBR theories here:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... ll-claims/

Excerpt:
In Brazil qualifying, Hamilton was sixth-fastest across the start/finish line, 7.7km/h faster than 20th-fastest Verstappen. The fastest was Yuki Tsunoda’s AlphaTauri, 4.1km/h faster than Hamilton. Tsunoda’s speed was flattered by a tow, but neither Hamilton nor Verstappen had tows on their best Interlagos laps, though obviously, both had use of DRS.

In the race, when they were each in clear air and with no DRS, Verstappen was usually at or around 300km/h over the start/finish, with Hamilton on or around 305km/h. The speed difference was not outrageous.

In Qatar Hamilton is 13th-fastest through the speed trap, 3.4km/h faster than 19th-fastest Verstappen. Fastest by far through the trap are the cars which lack downforce – the Haas and Alfas. The fastest of the Q3-level cars through the trap is the Ferrari, at 4km/h faster than Hamilton.

So, the gap between the speeds of the Mercedes and Red Bull has indeed reduced between Brazil and here – but only by 0.7km/h, hardly anything. But the trap figures only tell part of the story.

Comparing the speed profiles of the two cars throughout the straights gives a much fuller picture. Do this and in Brazil, Verstappen was losing 0.23s to the Mercedes on the straights throughout the lap (52.5% of the lap time deficit there).

In Qatar, he is losing 0.25s on the straights (54.9% of the deficit). So the lap time advantage derived from the Merc’s greater straightline has actually increased slightly in Qatar, albeit by no more variance than is typical circuit-to-circuit.

Marty_Y
Marty_Y
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Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:37 pm

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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zibby43 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:00 pm
Marty_Y wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:49 pm
Lewis Hamilton's Onboard Pole Lap | 2021 Qatar Grand Prix |

That was one to remember.
It's giving me similar vibes to the Singapore lap.


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siskue2005
67
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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zibby43 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:04 pm
mstar wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:58 pm
IS this a different wing configuration which doesn't give the reduced drag? the straight line pace seems on-par with RB. I am a bit miffed if this is due to the high speed corners which they cannot use the wing and flex configuration at high speed.
Same wing.

Mark Hughes destroys the RBR theories here:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... ll-claims/

Excerpt:
In Brazil qualifying, Hamilton was sixth-fastest across the start/finish line, 7.7km/h faster than 20th-fastest Verstappen. The fastest was Yuki Tsunoda’s AlphaTauri, 4.1km/h faster than Hamilton. Tsunoda’s speed was flattered by a tow, but neither Hamilton nor Verstappen had tows on their best Interlagos laps, though obviously, both had use of DRS.

In the race, when they were each in clear air and with no DRS, Verstappen was usually at or around 300km/h over the start/finish, with Hamilton on or around 305km/h. The speed difference was not outrageous.

In Qatar Hamilton is 13th-fastest through the speed trap, 3.4km/h faster than 19th-fastest Verstappen. Fastest by far through the trap are the cars which lack downforce – the Haas and Alfas. The fastest of the Q3-level cars through the trap is the Ferrari, at 4km/h faster than Hamilton.

So, the gap between the speeds of the Mercedes and Red Bull has indeed reduced between Brazil and here – but only by 0.7km/h, hardly anything. But the trap figures only tell part of the story.

Comparing the speed profiles of the two cars throughout the straights gives a much fuller picture. Do this and in Brazil, Verstappen was losing 0.23s to the Mercedes on the straights throughout the lap (52.5% of the lap time deficit there).

In Qatar, he is losing 0.25s on the straights (54.9% of the deficit). So the lap time advantage derived from the Merc’s greater straightline has actually increased slightly in Qatar, albeit by no more variance than is typical circuit-to-circuit.
Nice, I was so sure when Horner said that Merc speed decreased because they put pressure on them was complete BS.

zibby43
zibby43
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Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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siskue2005 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:08 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:04 pm
mstar wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:58 pm
IS this a different wing configuration which doesn't give the reduced drag? the straight line pace seems on-par with RB. I am a bit miffed if this is due to the high speed corners which they cannot use the wing and flex configuration at high speed.
Same wing.

Mark Hughes destroys the RBR theories here:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... ll-claims/

Excerpt:
In Brazil qualifying, Hamilton was sixth-fastest across the start/finish line, 7.7km/h faster than 20th-fastest Verstappen. The fastest was Yuki Tsunoda’s AlphaTauri, 4.1km/h faster than Hamilton. Tsunoda’s speed was flattered by a tow, but neither Hamilton nor Verstappen had tows on their best Interlagos laps, though obviously, both had use of DRS.

In the race, when they were each in clear air and with no DRS, Verstappen was usually at or around 300km/h over the start/finish, with Hamilton on or around 305km/h. The speed difference was not outrageous.

In Qatar Hamilton is 13th-fastest through the speed trap, 3.4km/h faster than 19th-fastest Verstappen. Fastest by far through the trap are the cars which lack downforce – the Haas and Alfas. The fastest of the Q3-level cars through the trap is the Ferrari, at 4km/h faster than Hamilton.

So, the gap between the speeds of the Mercedes and Red Bull has indeed reduced between Brazil and here – but only by 0.7km/h, hardly anything. But the trap figures only tell part of the story.

Comparing the speed profiles of the two cars throughout the straights gives a much fuller picture. Do this and in Brazil, Verstappen was losing 0.23s to the Mercedes on the straights throughout the lap (52.5% of the lap time deficit there).

In Qatar, he is losing 0.25s on the straights (54.9% of the deficit). So the lap time advantage derived from the Merc’s greater straightline has actually increased slightly in Qatar, albeit by no more variance than is typical circuit-to-circuit.
Nice, I was so sure when Horner said that Merc speed decreased because they put pressure on them was complete BS.
Dude was grinning like the Cheshire Cat despite turning in relatively worse qualifying performance compared to Brazil. I think RBR have become too focused on the off-track stuff.

zibby43
zibby43
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Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Marty_Y wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:07 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:00 pm
Marty_Y wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:49 pm
Lewis Hamilton's Onboard Pole Lap | 2021 Qatar Grand Prix |

That was one to remember.
It's giving me similar vibes to the Singapore lap.

Can’t you just feel Lewis getting into one of his “zones”?

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siskue2005
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Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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zibby43 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:29 pm
Marty_Y wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:07 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:00 pm


That was one to remember.
It's giving me similar vibes to the Singapore lap.

Can’t you just feel Lewis getting into one of his “zones”?
Yes, wonderful to see
The time delta (to his previous lap) on the screen increasing with every corner is so satisfying to watch

zibby43
zibby43
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Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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siskue2005 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:32 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:29 pm
Marty_Y wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:07 pm


It's giving me similar vibes to the Singapore lap.

Can’t you just feel Lewis getting into one of his “zones”?
Yes, wonderful to see
The time delta (to his previous lap) on the screen increasing with every corner is so satisfying to watch
More from Mark on the RW:
[The score marks look] like they are just from the DRS moving the flap. But I'm not saying the wing isn't flexing. It may be. If you read the piece I'm just saying that a flexing wing does not adequately explain the performance patterns between the two venues if it was flexing but now is not - as Christian Horner maintains. Also, if Mercedes was getting flex from a flexible wing underside it wouldn't make any marks at all.
Just so refreshing having some objectivity and common sense injected into this discussion.

Marty_Y
Marty_Y
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59361848

Qatar Grand Prix: Fair racing debate rages on between Hamilton and Verstappen

By Andrew Benson
Chief F1 writer

Many interesting things in this article including confirmation that Lewis was not using his new engine today.
After qualifying, Horner was mollified somewhat when he saw that Hamilton's advantage over Verstappen in the speed traps was less than it had been in Brazil - 3.4km/h compared to 9.2km/h.

He described Mercedes' straight-line speed as "under control", adding: "It looks very similar to our straight-line speed now, which is good to see. Lewis made all his time in Turns Six and Seven, particularly on that last lap. He had an amazing sector through that sequence of the two slower corners."

But there was one key difference - Hamilton was not using the brand new engine that had been fitted in Brazil at the expense of a grid penalty.

In Saudi Arabia in two weeks' time, though, he almost certainly will be. On a track that looks as if it has many high-speed sections. So what happens then?

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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I am now 100% convinced that Red Bull are just playing PR with the engine stuff. Anyone with half a brain can see that the speed differences really weren't that much at all. A bigger question is, why are Red Bull so slow on the straights all of a sudden?
Felipe Baby!

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Marty_Y wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:55 pm
He described Mercedes' straight-line speed as "under control", adding: "It looks very similar to our straight-line speed now, which is good to see. Lewis made all his time in Turns Six and Seven, particularly on that last lap. He had an amazing sector through that sequence of the two slower corners."
Which isn't true at all. But then it's Horner selling a narrative to the media who he knows will lap up every word he says - particularly the Sky crew who seem to hang on his every utterance as if it were words from the Lord himself.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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SiLo wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:44 pm
I am now 100% convinced that Red Bull are just playing PR with the engine stuff. Anyone with half a brain can see that the speed differences really weren't that much at all. A bigger question is, why are Red Bull so slow on the straights all of a sudden?
Of course they are. They're trying to get the FIA to spend time looking at Mercedes and thus make Mercedes spend time defending it all. It's childish stuff that does F1 no favours in my opinion.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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ringo
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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The team is really exploring their set up options really nicely. I think I know what they are doing, but wont divulge till the end of the season. It's not illegal though. The PU may have weaknesses, but it has other strengths that Honda cannot exploit this year. Additionally they went in a certain direction with their downforce creation when they updated the floor, they seemed to have looked back at the start of the year before the floor was updated and utilized a bit of the workarounds they had to do to make the car raceable.
The result is they have more efficient downforce and the car is very stable, which means it can be be that bit more versatile like red-bull at most tracks. I think also that 3 tenths of the speed is from driver confidence. Hamilton is more confident and is able to attack and be more aggressive without worrying about the balance. We see this also in Bottas' improved driving.
Redbull is losing out because the leadership is focusing on Mercedes and not focusing on their own car. And it's also likely their drivers aren't given them the same quality feedback as Bottas and Hamilton do with Merc.
For Sure!!

Marty_Y
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:45 pm
Marty_Y wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:55 pm
He described Mercedes' straight-line speed as "under control", adding: "It looks very similar to our straight-line speed now, which is good to see. Lewis made all his time in Turns Six and Seven, particularly on that last lap. He had an amazing sector through that sequence of the two slower corners."
Which isn't true at all. But then it's Horner selling a narrative to the media who he knows will lap up every word he says - particularly the Sky crew who seem to hang on his every utterance as if it were words from the Lord himself.
It was all purple sectors from Hamilton, as can be seen in this comparison.


flmkane
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:03 am
The team is really exploring their set up options really nicely. I think I know what they are doing, but wont divulge till the end of the season. It's not illegal though. The PU may have weaknesses, but it has other strengths that Honda cannot exploit this year. Additionally they went in a certain direction with their downforce creation when they updated the floor, they seemed to have looked back at the start of the year before the floor was updated and utilized a bit of the workarounds they had to do to make the car raceable.
The result is they have more efficient downforce and the car is very stable, which means it can be be that bit more versatile like red-bull at most tracks. I think also that 3 tenths of the speed is from driver confidence. Hamilton is more confident and is able to attack and be more aggressive without worrying about the balance. We see this also in Bottas' improved driving.
Redbull is losing out because the leadership is focusing on Mercedes and not focusing on their own car. And it's also likely their drivers aren't given them the same quality feedback as Bottas and Hamilton do with Merc.
That's an interesting point of view about RBR leadership. How much time has Newey invested into eyeballing Mercedes?

How many tenths of a second is one man hour of Newey's time worth?

How many points are each tenth worth?