2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
User avatar
Big Tea
96
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

Scorpaguy wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:55 pm
"Ham back in the zone"...I do not think so, He never left! Ham and Max in the Merc and RB are the class of the field. Both of these guys consistently race/finish way ahead of their team mates. The ebbs and flows atop the charts I attribute to circuit specifics that favor one car over another or development tweak gains. The massive Merc motor manipulated by Ham seems unstoppable now...I sort of think that Toto was keeping this in his back pocket for just this eventuality.
I don't know. For a few races now I have felt he was jaded and would possibly retire at year end, but after having such a fight in the sprint and following race and this weekend I feel he is refreshed and will look forward to next year.

And Next year will have Russell in the mix.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
Mogster
1
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

AeroDynamic wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:38 pm
Circuit review; Qatar, yay 👍🏽 or nay 👎🏽 ?
I’m leaning towards nay 👎🏽

I’m not sure what Moto GP fans make of this venue. For F1 the circuit did appear more raceable than expected, but on TV it’s still a dull venue with little character. Other than the pit straight it’s difficult to tell where the cars are in track, it’s just so featureless.

There’s many venues I’d rather watch F1.

User avatar
AeroDynamic
337
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:25 am
Location: La règle du jeu

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

Scorpaguy wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:55 pm
"Ham back in the zone"...I do not think so, He never left! Ham and Max in the Merc and RB are the class of the field. Both of these guys consistently race/finish way ahead of their team mates. The ebbs and flows atop the charts I attribute to circuit specifics that favor one car over another or development tweak gains. The massive Merc motor manipulated by Ham seems unstoppable now...I sort of think that Toto was keeping this in his back pocket for just this eventuality.
I don’t think Hamilton was in the zone the whole year. I don’t think he’s been his best. I just wonder which it is: age, fatigue, rusty, or recovering from post viral fatigue - I know about this one personally as I experience it last year and am still recovering from some neurological side effects. Virus’s can inflame and damage nerves. I do think he was being honest about that as well.

He seems to have been saying this weekend that he feels his best physically, after Brazil, and in general the tail end of the season, he has looked sharper, especially with starts and other consistency.

There’s also the car question, how uncomfortable was the w12, no doubt it has pace if you can unlock it, and it seemed to be pretty difficult to navigate set up per circuit. But I’ll reserve my judgement until he finishes out this season, and we see across next year. If he drives consistently like he has done since the recent races, and looks sharp, clinical etc. Then I would say it’s not necessarily age, but just not quite his optimum; nobody knows how unwell he was or what range of effects that novel virus had on him since December 2020.

He looked a lot more vulnerable earlier in the season.

Some people will think I’m referencing race wins but I’m not, I’m thinking he had good races on Mexico and USA etc.

Starkblood80
Starkblood80
0
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:42 pm

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

AeroDynamic wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:36 pm
Scorpaguy wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:55 pm
"Ham back in the zone"...I do not think so, He never left! Ham and Max in the Merc and RB are the class of the field. Both of these guys consistently race/finish way ahead of their team mates. The ebbs and flows atop the charts I attribute to circuit specifics that favor one car over another or development tweak gains. The massive Merc motor manipulated by Ham seems unstoppable now...I sort of think that Toto was keeping this in his back pocket for just this eventuality.
I don’t think Hamilton was in the zone the whole year. I don’t think he’s been his best. I just wonder which it is: age, fatigue, rusty, or recovering from post viral fatigue - I know about this one personally as I experience it last year and am still recovering from some neurological side effects. Virus’s can inflame and damage nerves. I do think he was being honest about that as well.

He seems to have been saying this weekend that he feels his best physically, after Brazil, and in general the tail end of the season, he has looked sharper, especially with starts and other consistency.

There’s also the car question, how uncomfortable was the w12, no doubt it has pace if you can unlock it, and it seemed to be pretty difficult to navigate set up per circuit. But I’ll reserve my judgement until he finishes out this season, and we see across next year. If he drives consistently like he has done since the recent races, and looks sharp, clinical etc. Then I would say it’s not necessarily age, but just not quite his optimum; nobody knows how unwell he was or what range of effects that novel virus had on him since December 2020.

He looked a lot more vulnerable earlier in the season.

Some people will think I’m referencing race wins but I’m not, I’m thinking he had good races on Mexico and USA etc.
I think he mentioned in the post race interview that he was feeling really fit lately with great recovery too. I wonder if it did take longer for him to fully recover from covid than maybe expected.

User avatar
west52keep64
51
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:05 pm

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

I'm glad the stewards summoned and admonished Horner for his comments about the marshals. I couldn't really believe what I was hearing. He typically makes some fairly controversial comments in the media, but to publicly call out the actions of a single marshal who was simply doing their job was outrageous. The rules are incredibly clear on this matter, the flags take precedence. Race control do not always have the full picture and rely on the judgement of the marshals who have a much better view of what's happening on track. A stationary car on the track is a clear and present danger. Modern F1 cars are safe, but we have still seen some serious injuries in recent years as a result of cars stopped on track. Billy Monger & Jules Bianchi come to mind.

the poster below
the poster below
0
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:11 pm

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

Image

In memoriam rogue marshal

User avatar
ringo
204
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

Looks like the window of opportunity to fight a Covid-19 weakened Hamilton has closed. He does seem less winded after the races. And with this track with high speed sections I was wondering if he would be winded after. He seemed rather back to his old self. Max has to fight a Hamilton risen from slumber now. Should be fire works for the last 2 races.

I think Max is also more determined now, in fact he always gives 100% and he will not be cautious in the last 2 races. We saw that in lap 1 today with him almost falling off tracking trying to attack Fernando.

I can see Redbull changing his engine for the next race. It can pay dividends.
For Sure!!

BlueCheetah66
BlueCheetah66
8
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:23 pm

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

ringo wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:53 pm
Looks like the window of opportunity to fight a Covid-19 weakened Hamilton has closed. He does seem less winded after the races. And with this track with high speed sections I was wondering if he would be winded after. He seemed rather back to his old self. Max has to fight a Hamilton risen from slumber now. Should be fire works for the last 2 races.

I think Max is also more determined now, in fact he always gives 100% and he will not be cautious in the last 2 races. We saw that in lap 1 today with him almost falling off tracking trying to attack Fernando.

I can see Redbull changing his engine for the next race. It can pay dividends.
I wonder what will happen if both have to engage in a battle in either race. Both drivers cannot back out of a corner now. I think we were robbed of a good battle today if Max had started on the front row, I just hope these last two races are not just one driver out in the distance

User avatar
Big Tea
96
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:59 pm
ringo wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:53 pm
Looks like the window of opportunity to fight a Covid-19 weakened Hamilton has closed. He does seem less winded after the races. And with this track with high speed sections I was wondering if he would be winded after. He seemed rather back to his old self. Max has to fight a Hamilton risen from slumber now. Should be fire works for the last 2 races.

I think Max is also more determined now, in fact he always gives 100% and he will not be cautious in the last 2 races. We saw that in lap 1 today with him almost falling off tracking trying to attack Fernando.

I can see Redbull changing his engine for the next race. It can pay dividends.
I wonder what will happen if both have to engage in a battle in either race. Both drivers cannot back out of a corner now. I think we were robbed of a good battle today if Max had started on the front row, I just hope these last two races are not just one driver out in the distance
The dynamics are different now. 3 weeks ago it was win to Max if they both go out as there would be one less race and he was in front. Now Lewis is close enough that if they both go out he can win and the same for Max in Lewis mind.
Neither can afford a DNF now so 50/50 would have to be at least 60/40 for them to risk a collision.
It would probably still benefit Max, but it would have to be 100% Lewis is unable to continue, and the same for Lewis
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
AeroDynamic
337
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:25 am
Location: La règle du jeu

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

ringo wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:53 pm

I can see Redbull changing his engine for the next race. It can pay dividends.
I mean, if it looks helpless against the Brazil ‘spicy’ engine in Jeddah, then maybe they might as well. But I’m going to say this: MCS can afford to run an engine in some sort of higher ‘qualifying/party’ esque mode. It has been proven to work for many years.

When Honda was operating under those regs with party modes, they proved to be unreliable across a season. We just don’t know what the ceiling of the Honda reliability is, at the level they have it, it is very potent and incredibly reliable. They’ve done an incredible job. But maybe it is right toward the cliff of its sweet spot of reliability and power.

If Honda run it harder, it might be a dynamic issue of increasing power, more the doubles the reliability risk for their engine. I think they would’ve done it by now if they thought they could.

And given the 2nd spec engine had “reliability improvements” that allowed them to unlock the original power from Bahrain, that alone tells me they’re operating that engine to its maximised potential, and ceiling of credible reliability.

shultz
shultz
0
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:10 am

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

AeroDynamic wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:16 pm
And given the 2nd spec engine had “reliability improvements” that allowed them to unlock the original power from Bahrain, that alone tells me they’re operating that engine to its maximised potential, and ceiling of credible reliability.
I thought it was widely acknowledged that they didn't incorporate any reliability fixes for the '2nd spec' -- it was the same spec, potentially just with more optimized management and the Mobil1 oil update.

What if Honda could build a 1-engine monster for Abu Dhabi? Push everything with the luxury of only having to last 1 race whereas the Merc spicy special has to last 3?

Does anyone know how long it would take an engine maker to build a new engine? e.g. let's say Honda and Red Bull thought of investing the effort to build such an engine after the race in Brazil, would ~3 weeks be enough time to put in the same tricks as Merc (more aggressive compression, optimized ignition timing a la the engine modes of the past, etc.)?

User avatar
Big Tea
96
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

shultz wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:32 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:16 pm
And given the 2nd spec engine had “reliability improvements” that allowed them to unlock the original power from Bahrain, that alone tells me they’re operating that engine to its maximised potential, and ceiling of credible reliability.
I thought it was widely acknowledged that they didn't incorporate any reliability fixes for the '2nd spec' -- it was the same spec, potentially just with more optimized management and the Mobil1 oil update.

What if Honda could build a 1-engine monster for Abu Dhabi? Push everything with the luxury of only having to last 1 race whereas the Merc spicy special has to last 3?

Does anyone know how long it would take an engine maker to build a new engine? e.g. let's say Honda and Red Bull thought of investing the effort to build such an engine after the race in Brazil, would ~3 weeks be enough time to put in the same tricks as Merc (more aggressive compression, optimized ignition timing a la the engine modes of the past, etc.)?
If an engine is going to be that much of an advantage, why not take the hit and change it every time? 5 places is not really relevant, it is only the Mercs that are going to matter. Who else is going to need passing?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

shultz
shultz
0
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:10 am

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

Big Tea wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:36 pm
If an engine is going to be that much of an advantage, why not take the hit and change it every time? 5 places is not really relevant, it is only the Mercs that are going to matter. Who else is going to need passing?
It's a bit of a 'Hail Mary', right? Taking the grid penalty is a risk. Running an engine with compromised reliability is a risk.

User avatar
AeroDynamic
337
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:25 am
Location: La règle du jeu

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

well thats the other thing, does Honda have the budget, backing, infrastructure in place to develop something out of left field that MCS has put them under pressure to do? MCS done something they already had in their artillery with that power mode. The Honda.. im not sure what they got. They're in a transition period of handover, seems a bit farfetched to me, but we will see.

But I don't know what came out since Bahrain / France, I thought they conserved the engine for reliability after Bahrain, and had it back to its potential since France? correct me if im wrong, and please cite something to get me up to speed


I tell you, what a beast Honda would be if, after MCS pulled their card, the Honda comes with an answer and its not a bluff.

Starkblood80
Starkblood80
0
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:42 pm

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

Post

shultz wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:32 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:16 pm
And given the 2nd spec engine had “reliability improvements” that allowed them to unlock the original power from Bahrain, that alone tells me they’re operating that engine to its maximised potential, and ceiling of credible reliability.
I thought it was widely acknowledged that they didn't incorporate any reliability fixes for the '2nd spec' -- it was the same spec, potentially just with more optimized management and the Mobil1 oil update.

What if Honda could build a 1-engine monster for Abu Dhabi? Push everything with the luxury of only having to last 1 race whereas the Merc spicy special has to last 3?

Does anyone know how long it would take an engine maker to build a new engine? e.g. let's say Honda and Red Bull thought of investing the effort to build such an engine after the race in Brazil, would ~3 weeks be enough time to put in the same tricks as Merc (more aggressive compression, optimized ignition timing a la the engine modes of the past, etc.)?
If the rumours are to be believed, didn’t Mercedes need to use Bottas as a test mule before introducing the spicy ICE for Hamilton and didn’t that happen around monza? I’m not sure 3 weeks would be enough time for Honda to make the modifications necessary to turn their ICE up to 11