2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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JPower
JPower
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:06 am

Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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Mclarensenna wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:28 am
JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:55 pm
1m0bius1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:52 pm


I don't believe that. There is no way of knowing how ricciardo would have performed in the Ferrari. The Ferrari would have been far more to Dan's liking and he may have well outscored leclerc. Look what he did at Renault. The fact was the McLaren car philosophy is extremely biased to fast corners and straights. It is a very average overall package and has a lot of weaknesses. Hopefully after Dan's input this is remedied next season. 2020 saw Dan in unstoppable form after Renault developed the car to his liking.
Massive assumption first and a big overstatement later.

In my opinion, Sainz would've outscored Ricciardo last year if not for some reliability issues.

As for beating Leclerc, there's nothing to say he wouldn't have issues adapting to the Ferrari as well.

Ric never had issues adapting and beating Hulk in his 1st year whereas Sainz did who lost to Hulk.
Ric also had no issue adapting from day 1 in 2014 and beat Vettel the 4xWDC in his very 1st race and got 3 wins to Vettels 0.
Rics track record speaks for itself as he has adapted to 4 other cars with no issue bar the Mclaren (with the strange driving traits).
Even Sainz said the Mclaren was strange to drive and made no such similar references to the Ferrari so we can conclude from Sainz after driving both the Ferrari is easier to drive and adapt to than the Mclaren
At Ferrari you also have the luxury of doing unlimited testing laps with older cars at the Fiorano circuit to help you adapt even quicker.
At Mclaren no such luck as supposedly mclaren does not even have the renault engines to start the older Mclarens.
hence at Ferrari you can learn and adapt to the car much quicker.

So yes based on all this IMHO i dont think RIc would have had any issue adapting if he had joined Ferrari instead of Mclaren in 2021.
Sainz said the McLaren was strange to drive yet ended up pulling some impressive results out of the MCL34 and MCL35, both of which have the same aero concepts as the 2021. I don't think he had any trouble adapting to the car, at least not nearly the trouble Ricciardo has had this year. By that logic, we should assume the Renault had strange handling characteristics that didn't match Sainz's driving style.

So again, no proof that he'd be any better in the Ferrari. Knowing the Italian press and his status as a new driver, Sainz isn't going to make any public complaints about the car. However, after crashing in 3 straight weekends, he admitted that it had its own weird handling characteristics. The SF21 still carries faults from the SF1000 ie unstable airflow in certain circumstances.

As far as testing goes, given Seb's performance in the SF1000, I don't think the recent cars are very similar to the SF71. The testing at Fiorano might've helped some with learning Ferrari's various systems and how they setup their cars, but I doubt it did much for him regarding car characteristics.

Bottom line, you're making some very steep assumptions. We can go back and forth about hypotheticals but right now, we only know that Ricciardo is still struggling with an aero and driving concept that Norris and Sainz were able to make perform.

McL-H
McL-H
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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Sainz said the McLaren was strange to drive yet ended up pulling some impressive results out of the MCL34 and MCL35, both of which have the same aero concepts as the 2021.
He didn’t win a race, though? Or did he?

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Mclarensenna
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Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:49 am

Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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JPower wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:42 pm
Mclarensenna wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:28 am
JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:55 pm

Massive assumption first and a big overstatement later.

In my opinion, Sainz would've outscored Ricciardo last year if not for some reliability issues.

As for beating Leclerc, there's nothing to say he wouldn't have issues adapting to the Ferrari as well.

Ric never had issues adapting and beating Hulk in his 1st year whereas Sainz did who lost to Hulk.
Ric also had no issue adapting from day 1 in 2014 and beat Vettel the 4xWDC in his very 1st race and got 3 wins to Vettels 0.
Rics track record speaks for itself as he has adapted to 4 other cars with no issue bar the Mclaren (with the strange driving traits).
Even Sainz said the Mclaren was strange to drive and made no such similar references to the Ferrari so we can conclude from Sainz after driving both the Ferrari is easier to drive and adapt to than the Mclaren
At Ferrari you also have the luxury of doing unlimited testing laps with older cars at the Fiorano circuit to help you adapt even quicker.
At Mclaren no such luck as supposedly mclaren does not even have the renault engines to start the older Mclarens.
hence at Ferrari you can learn and adapt to the car much quicker.

So yes based on all this IMHO i dont think RIc would have had any issue adapting if he had joined Ferrari instead of Mclaren in 2021.
Sainz said the McLaren was strange to drive yet ended up pulling some impressive results out of the MCL34 and MCL35, both of which have the same aero concepts as the 2021. I don't think he had any trouble adapting to the car, at least not nearly the trouble Ricciardo has had this year. By that logic, we should assume the Renault had strange handling characteristics that didn't match Sainz's driving style.

So again, no proof that he'd be any better in the Ferrari. Knowing the Italian press and his status as a new driver, Sainz isn't going to make any public complaints about the car. However, after crashing in 3 straight weekends, he admitted that it had its own weird handling characteristics. The SF21 still carries faults from the SF1000 ie unstable airflow in certain circumstances.

As far as testing goes, given Seb's performance in the SF1000, I don't think the recent cars are very similar to the SF71. The testing at Fiorano might've helped some with learning Ferrari's various systems and how they setup their cars, but I doubt it did much for him regarding car characteristics.

Bottom line, you're making some very steep assumptions. We can go back and forth about hypotheticals but right now, we only know that Ricciardo is still struggling with an aero and driving concept that Norris and Sainz were able to make perform.
Sainz joined Mclaren and had 1 of the biggest luxuries known to man. Guess what it was?
Going up against a teenager who was a complete virgin to F1 in his 1st year, who had never raced a complete single F1 weekend before who also had to learn the strange driving traits as well.

It means both drivers learn the car from race 1 and adapt and slowly get faster as the second half of the year progresses and they both look very good and Sainz looks like he had no trouble adapting as the benchmark from race 1 with Norris, the teenage F1 virgin team mate is very low. Norris also was nowhere near as aggressive in his 1st year. Norris is a completely different driver this year. Much more confident, more aggressive, faster etc

Sainz did not have this luxury when he joined Renault and neither did Ric. They both went up against not only an experienced driver in Hulk but an experienced driver in understanding the Renault. So the becnhmark at Renault was very high in comparison. And Ric clearly adapted much quicker than Sainz under this very similar high benchmark example.

If hypothetically speaking Sainz had joined Mclaren in 2018 with Alonso still there who knows the car like the back of his hand it would have been a complete destruction worse than Vandoorne IMHO (as vandoorne is no slouch and a GP2 winner). Sainz is very lucky he never went up against a peak, in form Alonso, when he joined Mclaren.

Ric joined Mclaren after Norris was in his 3rd year, Not a teenager anymore, alot more experienced, 40 or so full race weekends under his belt, alot faster, more aggresive, more confident and fully comfortable and adapted to the strange driving traits of that Mclaren.

So of course Ric will struggle in his 1st year under these VERY different circumstances.
If Ric hypothetically joined Mclaren 2 years ago with Norris the teenager, a complete F1 virgin, then yes Ric would have been faster from day 1 the same way Sainz was IMHO.

1m0bius1
1m0bius1
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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Anyway this is all hypothetical. Need to focus on next season and Dan's input will obviously play a role in the 2022 car. We should see him perform far better next year.

Cant get that new Wind Tunnel and sim soon enough.

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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Mclarensenna wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:57 am


Sainz joined Mclaren and had 1 of the biggest luxuries known to man. Guess what it was?
Going up against a teenager who was a complete virgin to F1 in his 1st year, who had never raced a complete single F1 weekend before who also had to learn the strange driving traits as well.

It means both drivers learn the car from race 1 and adapt and slowly get faster as the second half of the year progresses and they both look very good and Sainz looks like he had no trouble adapting as the benchmark from race 1 with Norris, the teenage F1 virgin team mate is very low. Norris also was nowhere near as aggressive in his 1st year. Norris is a completely different driver this year. Much more confident, more aggressive, faster etc

Sainz did not have this luxury when he joined Renault and neither did Ric. They both went up against not only an experienced driver in Hulk but an experienced driver in understanding the Renault. So the becnhmark at Renault was very high in comparison. And Ric clearly adapted much quicker than Sainz under this very similar high benchmark example.

If hypothetically speaking Sainz had joined Mclaren in 2018 with Alonso still there who knows the car like the back of his hand it would have been a complete destruction worse than Vandoorne IMHO (as vandoorne is no slouch and a GP2 winner). Sainz is very lucky he never went up against a peak, in form Alonso, when he joined Mclaren.

Ric joined Mclaren after Norris was in his 3rd year, Not a teenager anymore, alot more experienced, 40 or so full race weekends under his belt, alot faster, more aggresive, more confident and fully comfortable and adapted to the strange driving traits of that Mclaren.

So of course Ric will struggle in his 1st year under these VERY different circumstances.
If Ric hypothetically joined Mclaren 2 years ago with Norris the teenager, a complete F1 virgin, then yes Ric would have been faster from day 1 the same way Sainz was IMHO.
Have you forgotten that Sainz joined a Ferrari team that was being lead by LeClerc? A driver that alot people hold in as high regard as Verstappen, that crushed a 4 time world Champion on the track. That had been driving for the same team for 3 years?
Sainz walked in to a pressure cooker situation at a Marquee team, got himself setup and has out scored LeClerc in the 2nd half of the season. You have NO idea how much Sainz's stock has gone up in 2021. FORGET the PAST, in 2021 Sainz is fighting toe to toe with one of the best F1 drivers of 2021 and he is coming out on top. You can't say the same for Ricciardo. Don't get me wrong, I like Ricciardo but facts are facts.
Last edited by diffuser on Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mclarensenna
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:40 am
Mclarensenna wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:57 am


Sainz joined Mclaren and had 1 of the biggest luxuries known to man. Guess what it was?
Going up against a teenager who was a complete virgin to F1 in his 1st year, who had never raced a complete single F1 weekend before who also had to learn the strange driving traits as well.

It means both drivers learn the car from race 1 and adapt and slowly get faster as the second half of the year progresses and they both look very good and Sainz looks like he had no trouble adapting as the benchmark from race 1 with Norris, the teenage F1 virgin team mate is very low. Norris also was nowhere near as aggressive in his 1st year. Norris is a completely different driver this year. Much more confident, more aggressive, faster etc

Sainz did not have this luxury when he joined Renault and neither did Ric. They both went up against not only an experienced driver in Hulk but an experienced driver in understanding the Renault. So the becnhmark at Renault was very high in comparison. And Ric clearly adapted much quicker than Sainz under this very similar high benchmark example.

If hypothetically speaking Sainz had joined Mclaren in 2018 with Alonso still there who knows the car like the back of his hand it would have been a complete destruction worse than Vandoorne IMHO (as vandoorne is no slouch and a GP2 winner). Sainz is very lucky he never went up against a peak, in form Alonso, when he joined Mclaren.

Ric joined Mclaren after Norris was in his 3rd year, Not a teenager anymore, alot more experienced, 40 or so full race weekends under his belt, alot faster, more aggresive, more confident and fully comfortable and adapted to the strange driving traits of that Mclaren.

So of course Ric will struggle in his 1st year under these VERY different circumstances.
If Ric hypothetically joined Mclaren 2 years ago with Norris the teenager, a complete F1 virgin, then yes Ric would have been faster from day 1 the same way Sainz was IMHO.
Have you forgotten that Sainz joined a Ferrari team that was being lead by LeClerc? A driver that alot people hold in as high regard as Verstappen, that crushed a 4 time world Champion on the track. That had been driving for the same team for 3 years?
Sainz walked in to a pressure cooker situation at a Marquee team, got himself setup and has out scored LeClerc in the 2nd half of the season. You have NO idea how much Sainz's stock has gone up in 2021. FORGET the PAST in 2021 Sainz is fighting toe to toe with one of the best F1 drivers of 2021 and he is coming out on top. You can't say the same for Ricciardo. Don't get me wrong, I like Ricciardo but facts are facts.
"You can't say the same for Ricciardo. Don't get me wrong, I like Ricciardo but facts are facts." <---------

Ric has also outscored Norris in the second half of the year also unless he has dropped back with previous 2 races where the car had issues out of Rics control. Rics second half has been just as impressive as Sainz and Ric has a race win to his name also. So yes it is factually correct Rics second half of the season is at least as impressive as Sainz second half.

Ric demolished Vettel the 4xWDC at the peak of his powers at 26 right after winning 4xWDC in a row with a custom car designed around him by Newey himself with 6 years in that car fully embdedded into the team.
Ric also beat vettels lap times in the 2009, 2010 and 2013 young drivers tests without even fitting in the seat after a few laps in short and long run pace. Extremely impressive to beat the 4xWDC in his title winning exhuast blown diffuser rocketships.
Ric got 3 wins to vettels 0 that ihn 2014.
The facts are clear. Ric demolished the 4xWDC in the actual redbull he won those titles in in a slightly more impressive way than Leclerc did in a Ferrari he never won any championships in.
So using Vettel as a huge reference point which you have the facts are crystal clear that Leclerc was impressive against Vettel but Ric even more so. Facts are facts as you said i agree :)

1m0bius1
1m0bius1
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:40 am
Mclarensenna wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:57 am


Sainz joined Mclaren and had 1 of the biggest luxuries known to man. Guess what it was?
Going up against a teenager who was a complete virgin to F1 in his 1st year, who had never raced a complete single F1 weekend before who also had to learn the strange driving traits as well.

It means both drivers learn the car from race 1 and adapt and slowly get faster as the second half of the year progresses and they both look very good and Sainz looks like he had no trouble adapting as the benchmark from race 1 with Norris, the teenage F1 virgin team mate is very low. Norris also was nowhere near as aggressive in his 1st year. Norris is a completely different driver this year. Much more confident, more aggressive, faster etc

Sainz did not have this luxury when he joined Renault and neither did Ric. They both went up against not only an experienced driver in Hulk but an experienced driver in understanding the Renault. So the becnhmark at Renault was very high in comparison. And Ric clearly adapted much quicker than Sainz under this very similar high benchmark example.

If hypothetically speaking Sainz had joined Mclaren in 2018 with Alonso still there who knows the car like the back of his hand it would have been a complete destruction worse than Vandoorne IMHO (as vandoorne is no slouch and a GP2 winner). Sainz is very lucky he never went up against a peak, in form Alonso, when he joined Mclaren.

Ric joined Mclaren after Norris was in his 3rd year, Not a teenager anymore, alot more experienced, 40 or so full race weekends under his belt, alot faster, more aggresive, more confident and fully comfortable and adapted to the strange driving traits of that Mclaren.

So of course Ric will struggle in his 1st year under these VERY different circumstances.
If Ric hypothetically joined Mclaren 2 years ago with Norris the teenager, a complete F1 virgin, then yes Ric would have been faster from day 1 the same way Sainz was IMHO.
Have you forgotten that Sainz joined a Ferrari team that was being lead by LeClerc? A driver that alot people hold in as high regard as Verstappen, that crushed a 4 time world Champion on the track. That had been driving for the same team for 3 years?
Sainz walked in to a pressure cooker situation at a Marquee team, got himself setup and has out scored LeClerc in the 2nd half of the season. You have NO idea how much Sainz's stock has gone up in 2021. FORGET the PAST in 2021 Sainz is fighting toe to toe with one of the best F1 drivers of 2021 and he is coming out on top. You can't say the same for Ricciardo. Don't get me wrong, I like Ricciardo but facts are facts.
And yet also walked into a Renault team and was Handily beaten by Hulkenberg. Something that Dan managed to do from the outset. Like i said. Its not Dans's Fault Mclaren's car philosiphy is vastly different from other cars. Sainz him self told Ricciardo 'weird, isnt it?' with regards to the handling and strengths of the Mclaren and as this year has shown we need to move away from that philosophy if we want a chance of a WCC and WDC. We are close to 1 second a lap slower on some tracks.

mwillems
mwillems
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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We do know that some drivers adapt better than others though and that Dan's adaptation for me seemed dissapointing.

It's not the be all and end all, for sure, but I would have liked him to be more on it earlier. Obviously he needed the summer break to come to terms with the car.

But then who knows, perhaps the lack of an up to date Sim solution was part of that problem.
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Gillian
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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1m0bius1 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:31 am
Mclarensenna wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:28 am
JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:55 pm

Massive assumption first and a big overstatement later.

In my opinion, Sainz would've outscored Ricciardo last year if not for some reliability issues.

As for beating Leclerc, there's nothing to say he wouldn't have issues adapting to the Ferrari as well.

Ric never had issues adapting and beating Hulk in his 1st year whereas Sainz did who lost to Hulk.
Ric also had no issue adapting from day 1 in 2014 and beat Vettel the 4xWDC in his very 1st race and got 3 wins to Vettels 0.
Rics track record speaks for itself as he has adapted to 4 other cars with no issue bar the Mclaren (with the strange driving traits).
Even Sainz said the Mclaren was strange to drive and made no such similar references to the Ferrari so we can conclude from Sainz after driving both the Ferrari is easier to drive and adapt to than the Mclaren
At Ferrari you also have the luxury of doing unlimited testing laps with older cars at the Fiorano circuit to help you adapt even quicker.
At Mclaren no such luck as supposedly mclaren does not even have the renault engines to start the older Mclarens.
hence at Ferrari you can learn and adapt to the car much quicker.

So yes based on all this IMHO i dont think RIc would have had any issue adapting if he had joined Ferrari instead of Mclaren in 2021.
Exactly. Its Not Dan;s fault McLaren for some odd reason went for a completely different concept and as this season shows its not the concept that will bring a WDC, far too many weaknesses. Dan did very well under the current circumstances and has been plagued by bad luck in the last 3 races.

Sainz got easily beaten by the hulk.
I strongly disagree with that statement. Yes Sainz had a bit of a slow start, but he was new to the team. After a few races he really improved and performed better than Hulkenberg. Then they decided to throw Sainz out again and after that you see Hulkenberg gets the upper hand again. So basically Sainz was driving for a team which was not going to do him any favours (why would they, he needs to adapt first and then it was clear he had to leave again) and he still managed to stay close to his teammate.

Gillian
Gillian
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:40 am
Mclarensenna wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:57 am


Sainz joined Mclaren and had 1 of the biggest luxuries known to man. Guess what it was?
Going up against a teenager who was a complete virgin to F1 in his 1st year, who had never raced a complete single F1 weekend before who also had to learn the strange driving traits as well.

It means both drivers learn the car from race 1 and adapt and slowly get faster as the second half of the year progresses and they both look very good and Sainz looks like he had no trouble adapting as the benchmark from race 1 with Norris, the teenage F1 virgin team mate is very low. Norris also was nowhere near as aggressive in his 1st year. Norris is a completely different driver this year. Much more confident, more aggressive, faster etc

Sainz did not have this luxury when he joined Renault and neither did Ric. They both went up against not only an experienced driver in Hulk but an experienced driver in understanding the Renault. So the becnhmark at Renault was very high in comparison. And Ric clearly adapted much quicker than Sainz under this very similar high benchmark example.

If hypothetically speaking Sainz had joined Mclaren in 2018 with Alonso still there who knows the car like the back of his hand it would have been a complete destruction worse than Vandoorne IMHO (as vandoorne is no slouch and a GP2 winner). Sainz is very lucky he never went up against a peak, in form Alonso, when he joined Mclaren.

Ric joined Mclaren after Norris was in his 3rd year, Not a teenager anymore, alot more experienced, 40 or so full race weekends under his belt, alot faster, more aggresive, more confident and fully comfortable and adapted to the strange driving traits of that Mclaren.

So of course Ric will struggle in his 1st year under these VERY different circumstances.
If Ric hypothetically joined Mclaren 2 years ago with Norris the teenager, a complete F1 virgin, then yes Ric would have been faster from day 1 the same way Sainz was IMHO.
Have you forgotten that Sainz joined a Ferrari team that was being lead by LeClerc? A driver that alot people hold in as high regard as Verstappen, that crushed a 4 time world Champion on the track. That had been driving for the same team for 3 years?
Sainz walked in to a pressure cooker situation at a Marquee team, got himself setup and has out scored LeClerc in the 2nd half of the season. You have NO idea how much Sainz's stock has gone up in 2021. FORGET the PAST in 2021 Sainz is fighting toe to toe with one of the best F1 drivers of 2021 and he is coming out on top. You can't say the same for Ricciardo. Don't get me wrong, I like Ricciardo but facts are facts.
Totally agree.

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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1m0bius1 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:13 am
diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:40 am
Mclarensenna wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:57 am


Sainz joined Mclaren and had 1 of the biggest luxuries known to man. Guess what it was?
Going up against a teenager who was a complete virgin to F1 in his 1st year, who had never raced a complete single F1 weekend before who also had to learn the strange driving traits as well.

It means both drivers learn the car from race 1 and adapt and slowly get faster as the second half of the year progresses and they both look very good and Sainz looks like he had no trouble adapting as the benchmark from race 1 with Norris, the teenage F1 virgin team mate is very low. Norris also was nowhere near as aggressive in his 1st year. Norris is a completely different driver this year. Much more confident, more aggressive, faster etc

Sainz did not have this luxury when he joined Renault and neither did Ric. They both went up against not only an experienced driver in Hulk but an experienced driver in understanding the Renault. So the becnhmark at Renault was very high in comparison. And Ric clearly adapted much quicker than Sainz under this very similar high benchmark example.

If hypothetically speaking Sainz had joined Mclaren in 2018 with Alonso still there who knows the car like the back of his hand it would have been a complete destruction worse than Vandoorne IMHO (as vandoorne is no slouch and a GP2 winner). Sainz is very lucky he never went up against a peak, in form Alonso, when he joined Mclaren.

Ric joined Mclaren after Norris was in his 3rd year, Not a teenager anymore, alot more experienced, 40 or so full race weekends under his belt, alot faster, more aggresive, more confident and fully comfortable and adapted to the strange driving traits of that Mclaren.

So of course Ric will struggle in his 1st year under these VERY different circumstances.
If Ric hypothetically joined Mclaren 2 years ago with Norris the teenager, a complete F1 virgin, then yes Ric would have been faster from day 1 the same way Sainz was IMHO.
Have you forgotten that Sainz joined a Ferrari team that was being lead by LeClerc? A driver that alot people hold in as high regard as Verstappen, that crushed a 4 time world Champion on the track. That had been driving for the same team for 3 years?
Sainz walked in to a pressure cooker situation at a Marquee team, got himself setup and has out scored LeClerc in the 2nd half of the season. You have NO idea how much Sainz's stock has gone up in 2021. FORGET the PAST in 2021 Sainz is fighting toe to toe with one of the best F1 drivers of 2021 and he is coming out on top. You can't say the same for Ricciardo. Don't get me wrong, I like Ricciardo but facts are facts.
And yet also walked into a Renault team and was Handily beaten by Hulkenberg. Something that Dan managed to do from the outset. Like i said. Its not Dans's Fault Mclaren's car philosiphy is vastly different from other cars. Sainz him self told Ricciardo 'weird, isnt it?' with regards to the handling and strengths of the Mclaren and as this year has shown we need to move away from that philosophy if we want a chance of a WCC and WDC. We are close to 1 second a lap slower on some tracks.
2017
9	Carlos Sainz	ESP	RENAULT	54
10	Nico Hulkenberg	GER	RENAULT	43

2018
7	Nico Hulkenberg	GER	RENAULT	69
10	Carlos Sainz	ESP	RENAULT	53
Hardly handily beaten, he finished ahead only 1 of the 2 years. Combine the 2 years, 112 to 107 advantage Hulk.

Hulk is also 7 years the elder of Sainz. In my opinion, Sainz has matured to be a very good driver. I'm still not sure that he's better than Hulk. I've always found Hulk to be a excellent driver that couldn't find a good ride if his life depended on it, that's another story. Is Sainz as good as his 2021 stats suggest he is (as good as LeClerc)? Well we'll need more than 1 season to tell. 2021 suggest he is and it also suggest that Norris is in the running with LeClerc on the basis of Sainz's performance against Norris in 2020.

As for Daniel, is he finished ? I don't think so. He is closer to being put out to pasture than Sainz is. Another 2021 in 2022 for Daniel(however not likely) and he'll have McLaren thinking about paying him not drive in 2023.
Last edited by diffuser on Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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diffuser
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Location: Montreal

Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:48 pm
We do know that some drivers adapt better than others though and that Dan's adaptation for me seemed dissapointing.

It's not the be all and end all, for sure, but I would have liked him to be more on it earlier. Obviously he needed the summer break to come to terms with the car.

But then who knows, perhaps the lack of an up to date Sim solution was part of that problem.
No doudt. I'm sure most fan's expectations were that, at the least, he'd be toe to toe with Norris. Many though he'd have the edge on Norris, I did.

He's still not as fast as Norris. Norris is still able to get alot of speed out of that car at certain tracks. Daniel has just gotten a little faster and more consistant.

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Mclarensenna
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:38 pm
1m0bius1 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:13 am
diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:40 am


Have you forgotten that Sainz joined a Ferrari team that was being lead by LeClerc? A driver that alot people hold in as high regard as Verstappen, that crushed a 4 time world Champion on the track. That had been driving for the same team for 3 years?
Sainz walked in to a pressure cooker situation at a Marquee team, got himself setup and has out scored LeClerc in the 2nd half of the season. You have NO idea how much Sainz's stock has gone up in 2021. FORGET the PAST in 2021 Sainz is fighting toe to toe with one of the best F1 drivers of 2021 and he is coming out on top. You can't say the same for Ricciardo. Don't get me wrong, I like Ricciardo but facts are facts.
And yet also walked into a Renault team and was Handily beaten by Hulkenberg. Something that Dan managed to do from the outset. Like i said. Its not Dans's Fault Mclaren's car philosiphy is vastly different from other cars. Sainz him self told Ricciardo 'weird, isnt it?' with regards to the handling and strengths of the Mclaren and as this year has shown we need to move away from that philosophy if we want a chance of a WCC and WDC. We are close to 1 second a lap slower on some tracks.
2017
9	Carlos Sainz	ESP	RENAULT	54
10	Nico Hulkenberg	GER	RENAULT	43

2018
7	Nico Hulkenberg	GER	RENAULT	69
10	Carlos Sainz	ESP	RENAULT	53
Hardly handily beaten, he finished ahead only 1 of the 2 years. Combine the 2 years, 112 to 107 advantage Hulk.

Hulk is also 7 years the elder of Sainz. In my opinion, Sainz has matured to be a very good driver. I'm still not sure that he's better than Hulk. I've always found Hulk to be a excellent driver that couldn't find a good ride if his life depended on it, that's another story. Is Sainz as good as his 2021 stats suggest he is (as good as LeClerc)? Well we'll need more than 1 season to tell. 2021 suggest he is and it also suggest that Norris is in the running with LeClerc on the basis of Sainz's performance against Norris in 2020.

As for Daniel, is he finished ? I don't think so. He is closer to being put out to pasture than Sainz is. Another 2021 in 2022 for Daniel(however not likely) and he'll have McLaren thinking about paying him not drive in 2023.
"He is closer to being put out to pasture than Sainz is." <------ Ric has Mclarens only race win in nearly a decade and you are insinuating the possibility he will be put out to pasture. woww

"As for Daniel, is he finished ? I don't think so." <------ another Ric hating comment trying to insinuate he is possibly finished in F1. then spin it at the end saying you do not think so.

"he'll have McLaren thinking about paying him not drive in 2023." <-------- Another extremely negative, Ric bashing opinion. Nobody at Mclaren, Seidl or Brown has mentioned or insinuated paying Ric not to drive. That is a fact.

In your previous reply to me you stated this.

"Don't get me wrong, I like Ricciardo but facts are facts."

Sorry there is no way you "like" Ricciardo. People who like Ric do not go out of their way to make 3 extreme Ric bashing insults in just 1 post alone. Sure you are 100% entitled to your opinions and hate or like drivers we all are. No issue there.
But facts are facts as you said to me. And the 3 facts i just pasted clearly show you have some serious hate for Ricciardo not like. So please try and be more honest in your replies and not say you "like" Ric. As the facts are pretty clear you do not.
But as i said to each his own :)

Emag
Emag
96
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:56 pm

Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

Post

You are reading too much into those words. He was not bashing Daniel.

The truth is, whether you are a fan of him or not, this has not been a great season for Daniel.

The win in Monza is his only redeeming achievement. How much value you put into that, is up to you. But the rest of the season has been very difficult.

User avatar
Mclarensenna
39
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:49 am

Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

Post

Emag wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:10 am
You are reading too much into those words. He was not bashing Daniel.

The truth is, whether you are a fan of him or not, this has not been a great season for Daniel.

The win in Monza is his only redeeming achievement. How much value you put into that, is up to you. But the rest of the season has been very difficult.
Which exact words did i read too much into sorry? Please clarify?

"How much value you put into that, is up to you." <---- I am happy to answer that sure. The first win for Mclaren in nearly a decade i value EXTREMELY high. How high do you value it?

" But the rest of the season has been very difficult." <---- Since the summer break, and Ric is a bit more comfortable with the car, Ric has scored 55 points and Norris only 40.

The facts are clear. It is a fact Ric has beaten Norris in the second half of the season in points. Instead you stated this, "the "rest of the season" for Ric has been extremely difficult." The 1st half of the season i agree it was extremely difficult for Ric. Nobody would ever deny this.

But the rest of Rics season has been very impressive with more points than Norris scored in the second half including a race win. So that statement is completely false as the rest of Rics season has been quite decent to say the least. Not "extremely difficult" If completely false statements like this, is not Ric hating and bashing i do not know what is.