2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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SiLo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:59 am
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:16 am
People thought Max had it sealed, and now people thing Hamilton has it sealed. I just don't know man, I just don't know. I may sound like a broken record, but having had some time around the next track, I can't say it will be as easy for Mercedes. For one, you can't run max downforce around there, second we know the Red Bull is good around esses and high speed corners, which is all the next track is.

It will be closer next race, the track characteristics are a mixture of Mexico and COTA, or a flat Spa or a faster Montreal. There are two traction sensitive corners around Jeddah, the banked "hairpin" and the final corner. The rest you have to be very brave and come close to the wall. 2 stopper for sure.
I think Losail kind of disproves this "RB high speed king" rhetoric, Mercedes looked very good there everywhere on track, especially the corners. I know there are corners but this feels much more like Silverstone levels for a downforce package, and they were very fast there too.

I'm hoping Perez can have a good race as well, I really want to see both Mercs and both RBs right at the front fighting. I assume the DRS issue won't be a problem as they will probably run the spoon wing?
Not really, the track was modified, had track limits been more strictly enforced things would have looked differently. Also Max was flat through the 12-15 section, that means he was carrying more downforce. Also Red Bull couldn't use their normal wing and had to resort to their max downforce wing. Mexico still shows what the car can do when it's working right.
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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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SiLo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:34 pm
ringo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:04 pm
With esses. I dont think the downforce will be too low. Maybe medium. The track seems to need a good rear end to limit sliding in the esses and to promote good tyre deg
Also need a good front end as well. Really it's about balance. Too much at the front and you'll just spin around, too much at the rear and youll just understeer into a wall.
You can get away with a slightly front end biased setup because carrying speed through the high speed corners is so dependent on the entry phase. If you were fast in Bahrain, you'll be fast here because the downforce requirements are very similar.
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Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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SiLo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:34 pm
ringo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:04 pm
With esses. I dont think the downforce will be too low. Maybe medium. The track seems to need a good rear end to limit sliding in the esses and to promote good tyre deg
Also need a good front end as well. Really it's about balance. Too much at the front and you'll just spin around, too much at the rear and youll just understeer into a wall.
Maybe we get a repeat of Spa where they were looking at each other and both went low downforce to prevent being a sitting duck on the straights.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:15 pm
SiLo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:59 am
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:16 am
People thought Max had it sealed, and now people thing Hamilton has it sealed. I just don't know man, I just don't know. I may sound like a broken record, but having had some time around the next track, I can't say it will be as easy for Mercedes. For one, you can't run max downforce around there, second we know the Red Bull is good around esses and high speed corners, which is all the next track is.

It will be closer next race, the track characteristics are a mixture of Mexico and COTA, or a flat Spa or a faster Montreal. There are two traction sensitive corners around Jeddah, the banked "hairpin" and the final corner. The rest you have to be very brave and come close to the wall. 2 stopper for sure.
I think Losail kind of disproves this "RB high speed king" rhetoric, Mercedes looked very good there everywhere on track, especially the corners. I know there are corners but this feels much more like Silverstone levels for a downforce package, and they were very fast there too.

I'm hoping Perez can have a good race as well, I really want to see both Mercs and both RBs right at the front fighting. I assume the DRS issue won't be a problem as they will probably run the spoon wing?
Not really, the track was modified, had track limits been more strictly enforced things would have looked differently. Also Max was flat through the 12-15 section, that means he was carrying more downforce. Also Red Bull couldn't use their normal wing and had to resort to their max downforce wing. Mexico still shows what the car can do when it's working right.
Maybe try watching some of the Hamilton on board first, it looked just as stable as the Red Bull and was faster overall in the corners. If Max was carrying more downforce, he would have been faster around 75% of the track, but he wasn't he was slower.

Mexico is STILL and outlier in terms of relative performance.
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:15 pm
You can get away with a slightly front end biased setup because carrying speed through the high speed corners is so dependent on the entry phase. If you were fast in Bahrain, you'll be fast here because the downforce requirements are very similar.
Bahrain has minimal similarities with this circuit.
Felipe Baby!

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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SiLo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:02 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:15 pm
SiLo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:59 am


I think Losail kind of disproves this "RB high speed king" rhetoric, Mercedes looked very good there everywhere on track, especially the corners. I know there are corners but this feels much more like Silverstone levels for a downforce package, and they were very fast there too.

I'm hoping Perez can have a good race as well, I really want to see both Mercs and both RBs right at the front fighting. I assume the DRS issue won't be a problem as they will probably run the spoon wing?
Not really, the track was modified, had track limits been more strictly enforced things would have looked differently. Also Max was flat through the 12-15 section, that means he was carrying more downforce. Also Red Bull couldn't use their normal wing and had to resort to their max downforce wing. Mexico still shows what the car can do when it's working right.
Maybe try watching some of the Hamilton on board first, it looked just as stable as the Red Bull and was faster overall in the corners. If Max was carrying more downforce, he would have been faster around 75% of the track, but he wasn't he was slower.

Mexico is STILL and outlier in terms of relative performance.
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:15 pm
You can get away with a slightly front end biased setup because carrying speed through the high speed corners is so dependent on the entry phase. If you were fast in Bahrain, you'll be fast here because the downforce requirements are very similar.
Bahrain has minimal similarities with this circuit.
Yes when you widen the circuit it's easier to go flat out and if you have a power advantage, all the more. Bahrain has a similar downforce requirements not the corners themselves. Like I said, if track limits were more strictly enforced Mercedes wouldn't have had as much of a pace advantage. By making the track wider, by loosening the limits, you need less downforce to make it through them.
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f1jcw
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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That is grasping.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Curbstone
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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SiLo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:28 am
etusch wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:49 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:02 am

COTA is a bit of an outlier recently - the bumps meant the black cars ran with higher than normal ride height which lost a chunk of performance. If Jeddha is smooth the difference between Red Bull and Mercedes will be different to COTA.
didn't Redbull also lost performance because of that bumps? Why talking as if it affected only mercs badly? There are more variable and track may match Redbull more on the contrary of general expectation or may be we will see what expected.
My point is; people still thinks under 7 championships affect and this season have not able to change this by now. Normally it should be changed from beginning of season. These are last 2 races and you will win or lost everything.
I believe Red Bull requested permission to strengthen parts of the car, and Mercedes simply raised the ride height to compensate instead. So strategically Red Bull went the better route but likely a higher risk play. Clearly worked out for them though.
This is too much simplified, it's not just the one or the other. The bumps result in an undesirable short-term change in ride height. All teams had to adapt for that, also Red Bull. Mercedes just did a poor job in preparation and had to correct during the weekend. That doesn't mean they were affected more than f.e. Red Bull.

On top of that, the bumps cause extra stresses in the chassis and wings. Red Bull's wings weren't strong enough, so they had to strengthen them.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:44 pm
SiLo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:02 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:15 pm


Not really, the track was modified, had track limits been more strictly enforced things would have looked differently. Also Max was flat through the 12-15 section, that means he was carrying more downforce. Also Red Bull couldn't use their normal wing and had to resort to their max downforce wing. Mexico still shows what the car can do when it's working right.
Maybe try watching some of the Hamilton on board first, it looked just as stable as the Red Bull and was faster overall in the corners. If Max was carrying more downforce, he would have been faster around 75% of the track, but he wasn't he was slower.

Mexico is STILL and outlier in terms of relative performance.
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:15 pm
You can get away with a slightly front end biased setup because carrying speed through the high speed corners is so dependent on the entry phase. If you were fast in Bahrain, you'll be fast here because the downforce requirements are very similar.
Bahrain has minimal similarities with this circuit.
Yes when you widen the circuit it's easier to go flat out and if you have a power advantage, all the more. Bahrain has a similar downforce requirements not the corners themselves. Like I said, if track limits were more strictly enforced Mercedes wouldn't have had as much of a pace advantage. By making the track wider, by loosening the limits, you need less downforce to make it through them.
They just used the curbs as the edge of the track like pretty much everywhere else. They didn't make it wider to help Mercedes. Red Bull were just slower and that's a fact.

Changing topic - was there any reason given for Checo not getting out of Q2?
Felipe Baby!

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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f1jcw wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:32 pm
That is grasping.
My thoughts exactly! it will have been done by majority vote/complaints/feedback from the drivers after practices. The Red Bull boys may or may not have expressed a desire for the limits to be expanded but clearly most drivers did. You can bet your bottom dollar if it wasn't done unilaterally the RBR management team would have mentioned it to the media.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Curbstone wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:35 am
SiLo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:28 am
etusch wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:49 am


didn't Redbull also lost performance because of that bumps? Why talking as if it affected only mercs badly? There are more variable and track may match Redbull more on the contrary of general expectation or may be we will see what expected.
My point is; people still thinks under 7 championships affect and this season have not able to change this by now. Normally it should be changed from beginning of season. These are last 2 races and you will win or lost everything.
I believe Red Bull requested permission to strengthen parts of the car, and Mercedes simply raised the ride height to compensate instead. So strategically Red Bull went the better route but likely a higher risk play. Clearly worked out for them though.
This is too much simplified, it's not just the one or the other. The bumps result in an undesirable short-term change in ride height. All teams had to adapt for that, also Red Bull. Mercedes just did a poor job in preparation and had to correct during the weekend. That doesn't mean they were affected more than f.e. Red Bull.

On top of that, the bumps cause extra stresses in the chassis and wings. Red Bull's wings weren't strong enough, so they had to strengthen them.
Look at FP1 timings. Mercedes were deathly quick but they had to raise the ride-height of the car as risk prevention in the following sessions. Formula 1 cars are extremely sensitive to ride height changes. And because of those factors I agree that COTA was not representative. Too bumpy so it can't be used to predict the two extremely smooth tracks we have coming up.
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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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When track limits are defined, going over the limits is punished because the stewards feel an advantage has been gained. Remember Bahrain? No? Short memories I guess.

Without widened track limits Mercedes would never have been able to take turn 9 flat. They also would have lost speed on the exit of 7 if they couldn't cut through 8 like they were doing. That alone is worth 2 tenths. Add to that Red Bull were forced to run their high downforce rear wing which has proven to not give an ideal balance to the car and probably cost it a tenth and a half on the straights.

Oh well, the kerbs and walls determine the track limits at the next round, it's not so easy to modify or move kerbs around so we'll see.
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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:25 pm
When track limits are defined, going over the limits is punished because the stewards feel an advantage has been gained. Remember Bahrain? No? Short memories I guess.

Without widened track limits Mercedes would never have been able to take turn 9 flat. They also would have lost speed on the exit of 7 if they couldn't cut through 8 like they were doing. That alone is worth 2 tenths. Add to that Red Bull were forced to run their high downforce rear wing which has proven to not give an ideal balance to the car and probably cost it a tenth and a half on the straights.

Oh well, the kerbs and walls determine the track limits at the next round, it's not so easy to modify or move kerbs around so we'll see.
But the limits are the same for all the cars and drivers. If, and a big if, changing a track limit was seen as disadvantaging the RBR cars, there's no way the team wouldn't have mentioned it vociferously. I really don't think there is anything in this line of thinking you're going down.

Bahrain is an odd one and probably not a fair comparison as they changed the track limits mid race (which I think none of us agree is proper) but they did communicate it to all the teams/drivers but the rules were the same for all drivers at all times during that race so the advantage was there to be had by everyone, until it wasn't- again for everyone.

But I completely agree that there should be consistency on track limits across all tracks, and for me as for many others and probably yourself, it's the white lines for every corner on every track.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:25 pm
When track limits are defined, going over the limits is punished because the stewards feel an advantage has been gained. Remember Bahrain? No? Short memories I guess.

Without widened track limits Mercedes would never have been able to take turn 9 flat. They also would have lost speed on the exit of 7 if they couldn't cut through 8 like they were doing. That alone is worth 2 tenths. Add to that Red Bull were forced to run their high downforce rear wing which has proven to not give an ideal balance to the car and probably cost it a tenth and a half on the straights.

Oh well, the kerbs and walls determine the track limits at the next round, it's not so easy to modify or move kerbs around so we'll see.
How do you know what Mercedes would and wouldn't be able to do? Honestly you're just throwing out statements that are quite clearly not based in fact and it hurts the discussion here. Even accounting for these magic tenths you have plucked from thin air, Max would still have been second.

I do agree however, that the stewards need to be consistent with their wording and ruling. I would like to see all tracks either be the white line, or the red and white curbs. Nothing else.
Felipe Baby!

PhillipM
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Why would any track limits change benefit Merc anyway? RB can take the same line.