Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
toraabe
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:52 am
After the party mode ban you have to run the engine in the same mode (ERS excluded) from the beginning of Quali. Can this mode be set on a driver to driver basis? I vaguely remember that after a certain point one mode must be used by every customer or am I wrong? As far as I understand you can decide on another mode from weekend to weekend though.
Yes driver wise, but all modes has to be available to all drivers using that pu

Spoutnik
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Is Merc power advantage seen in Brazil gone ? Their straight line speed is a bit lower than the RB

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Spoutnik wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:21 pm
Is Merc power advantage seen in Brazil gone ? Their straight line speed is a bit lower than the RB
Was reported on air, and by various journalists, that Mercedes is saving the Brazil engine for the last two races (where they know it will be high speed, and with big straights), so here he is likely using the engine that was introduced in Turkey (is that the only other he really has?).

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siskue2005
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Spoutnik wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:21 pm
Is Merc power advantage seen in Brazil gone ? Their straight line speed is a bit lower than the RB
zibby43 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:04 pm
mstar wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:58 pm
IS this a different wing configuration which doesn't give the reduced drag? the straight line pace seems on-par with RB. I am a bit miffed if this is due to the high speed corners which they cannot use the wing and flex configuration at high speed.
Same wing.

Mark Hughes destroys the RBR theories here:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... ll-claims/

Excerpt:
In Brazil qualifying, Hamilton was sixth-fastest across the start/finish line, 7.7km/h faster than 20th-fastest Verstappen. The fastest was Yuki Tsunoda’s AlphaTauri, 4.1km/h faster than Hamilton. Tsunoda’s speed was flattered by a tow, but neither Hamilton nor Verstappen had tows on their best Interlagos laps, though obviously, both had use of DRS.

In the race, when they were each in clear air and with no DRS, Verstappen was usually at or around 300km/h over the start/finish, with Hamilton on or around 305km/h. The speed difference was not outrageous.

In Qatar Hamilton is 13th-fastest through the speed trap, 3.4km/h faster than 19th-fastest Verstappen. Fastest by far through the trap are the cars which lack downforce – the Haas and Alfas. The fastest of the Q3-level cars through the trap is the Ferrari, at 4km/h faster than Hamilton.

So, the gap between the speeds of the Mercedes and Red Bull has indeed reduced between Brazil and here – but only by 0.7km/h, hardly anything. But the trap figures only tell part of the story.

Comparing the speed profiles of the two cars throughout the straights gives a much fuller picture. Do this and in Brazil, Verstappen was losing 0.23s to the Mercedes on the straights throughout the lap (52.5% of the lap time deficit there).

In Qatar, he is losing 0.25s on the straights (54.9% of the deficit). So the lap time advantage derived from the Merc’s greater straightline has actually increased slightly in Qatar, albeit by no more variance than is typical circuit-to-circuit.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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One and Only wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:52 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:40 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:37 pm
I believe it has to be 'available' to all but not compulsory
That's correct, as anything else would be unfair. If they all had to run the same mode, then all the teams running the PU would be limited by the team with the worst cooling, intake, and exaust package!
Not only unfair, but also illegal afaik. Customer teams must have same options.
Nope. They just need to get the same engine specification "available. "

If they can't afford it, like Haas with Ferrari, they can stick to the old specficiations.

What Mercedes has applied is high power mapping. Mappings change track to track and session to session. It seems Mercedes has no incentive to give customer teams the high risk custom mappings. It might not even work with the tight cooling packages of McLaren and Aston Martin.
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:23 pm
It seems Mercedes has no incentive to give customer teams the high risk custom mappings. It might not even work with the tight cooling packages of McLaren and Aston Martin.
That is against the rules! Customer teams must have access to the same mappings as the manufacture. Merc can advise customers not to run them, but they must be available!
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saviour stivala
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:35 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:23 pm
It seems Mercedes has no incentive to give customer teams the high risk custom mappings. It might not even work with the tight cooling packages of McLaren and Aston Martin.
That is against the rules! Customer teams must have access to the same mappings as the manufacture. Merc can advise customers not to run them, but they must be available!
But who says that they are not available to customer teams?

JPower
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:35 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:23 pm
It seems Mercedes has no incentive to give customer teams the high risk custom mappings. It might not even work with the tight cooling packages of McLaren and Aston Martin.
That is against the rules! Customer teams must have access to the same mappings as the manufacture. Merc can advise customers not to run them, but they must be available!
True, but given that Mercedes runs a different cooling system than its customers, they are probably right in saying that Mercedes might be the only one that can reliably use the PU in this high state of tune.

saviour stivala
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Formula one power unit supplied to customer teams are regulated by Federation rules. The supply will of course include the various power modes the power unit can be operated in.

There should be no doubt that the minimum cooling system requirements to run/operate a supplied power unit would be part of the supply contract needs. But the cooling system not being part of the power unit as suppled is the responsibility of the customer team.

Having said all that one can rest assured that all cars on the grid including power unit customers cars runs a cooling system that meets at least the minimum cooling requirements for their respective power unit. As per the rules each ‘car’s power unit (each driver’s power unit) can only be operated in one selected power mode from qualifying to race end. This makes it possible for two drivers in the same team running in different power modes, let alone different customer teams running in different power modes.

The level of power mode selected to run a power unit on is decided in accordance with the power unit life condition. But no matter the power mode selected to run on, the maximum power output of the selected mode delivery to the rear wheels will wholly depend on the said power unit sophisticated electronic safeguards monitoring system (water and oil cooling level/ cylinder knock levels). The more effective/efficient these said systems are the more power can be delivered to the rear wheels from a decided upon/selected to run on power mode.

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saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:03 am
Formula one power unit supplied to customer teams are regulated by Federation rules. The supply will of course include the various power modes the power unit can be operated in.

There should be no doubt that the minimum cooling system requirements to run/operate a supplied power unit would be part of the supply contract needs. But the cooling system not being part of the power unit as suppled is the responsibility of the customer team.

Having said all that one can rest assured that all cars on the grid including power unit customers cars runs a cooling system that meets at least the minimum cooling requirements for their respective power unit. As per the rules each ‘car’s power unit (each driver’s power unit) can only be operated in one selected power mode from qualifying to race end. This makes it possible for two drivers in the same team running in different power modes, let alone different customer teams running in different power modes.

The level of power mode selected to run a power unit on is decided in accordance with the power unit life condition. But no matter the power mode selected to run on, the maximum power output of the selected mode delivery to the rear wheels will wholly depend on the said power unit sophisticated electronic safeguards monitoring system (water and oil cooling level/ cylinder knock levels). The more effective/efficient these said systems are the more power can be delivered to the rear wheels from a decided upon/selected to run on power mode.
From what we saw in 2014, when Massa asked for "overtake" before being permitted to use the "Strat 2" qaulifying mode for a couple laps we can tell that the customer teams used to have all the maps but their use of these maps were restricted to lesser laps or even just for qualifying use. This implies that Mercedes has some sort of engine life guarantee with it's customers and it would be unusual for them to allow use of the power maps flogging the car around whenever they want. So yeah, customers have the maps but their use of it is restricted.
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Juzh
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:55 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:03 am
Formula one power unit supplied to customer teams are regulated by Federation rules. The supply will of course include the various power modes the power unit can be operated in.

There should be no doubt that the minimum cooling system requirements to run/operate a supplied power unit would be part of the supply contract needs. But the cooling system not being part of the power unit as suppled is the responsibility of the customer team.

Having said all that one can rest assured that all cars on the grid including power unit customers cars runs a cooling system that meets at least the minimum cooling requirements for their respective power unit. As per the rules each ‘car’s power unit (each driver’s power unit) can only be operated in one selected power mode from qualifying to race end. This makes it possible for two drivers in the same team running in different power modes, let alone different customer teams running in different power modes.

The level of power mode selected to run a power unit on is decided in accordance with the power unit life condition. But no matter the power mode selected to run on, the maximum power output of the selected mode delivery to the rear wheels will wholly depend on the said power unit sophisticated electronic safeguards monitoring system (water and oil cooling level/ cylinder knock levels). The more effective/efficient these said systems are the more power can be delivered to the rear wheels from a decided upon/selected to run on power mode.
From what we saw in 2014, when Massa asked for "overtake" before being permitted to use the "Strat 2" qaulifying mode for a couple laps we can tell that the customer teams used to have all the maps but their use of these maps were restricted to lesser laps or even just for qualifying use. This implies that Mercedes has some sort of engine life guarantee with it's customers and it would be unusual for them to allow use of the power maps flogging the car around whenever they want. So yeah, customers have the maps but their use of it is restricted.
If you mean Massa's defence from hamilton in monza and him being instructed to not use overtake on one of the laps that does not immediately mean he's now suddenly using a trash mode or anything like that, it could just mean he's down on battery, or maybe he's exceeded allotted overtake button uses for that particular race or whatever. In fact in 2014 in Monza all mercedes powered cars were using one deploy and one save lap to manage energy (~20 kmh difference in top speed).

btw, strat 2 is never used in races, it literally lasts only 1 lap and then you are seconds per lap slower and will be overtaken by everyone that's remotely close to you, not to mention it needs a full lap to charge. Literally never have I seen or heard a mercedes car use strat 2 in any other session than Q2 and Q3. Highest strat possible in races was strat3 based on some info from some time ago, but this year strat 4 was the most they used. Actually in vast majority of cases they'll use strat 5 when they need to push for 2 consecutive laps. When someone needs to defend they just use regular race modes + overtake button on critical sections.

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Up to 2018 (New FIA rules tweak to make F1 engine customer teams more competitive) there were actually two different scenario’s used by the two leading power unit suppliers not only to control their own two drivers/cars but most importantly their power unit supplied customers teams race performance on track. FERRARI was supplying only a year old power unit specification while Mercedes used secret engine modes. (How a secret Mercedes engine mode helped Vettel into a race-ending puncture ---2015 Belgian GP). But then that is all in the past, a period before the FIA 2018 power unit supply rules tweak, and so doesn’t apply to the present period of power unit supply rules that are being discussed on this here page

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restless wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:47 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:40 am
One and Only wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:01 am
How is it possible to run your ICE so much harder with limited fuel flow? Last time someone had ICE performance like this there was fuel flow sensor saga. And that ICE could race for 7 races.
Because the ICE is normally run more conservatively in order to last 7 or 8 races. They'll run to a limited max revs, for example, and in this ICE they might be saying "you can have some extra revs" which will help give a higher top speed (gearing allowing, of course).
The question is not of running harder.
Its about how they get so much better efficiency with same fuel amount
This part bothers me a lot the last few weeks. If this is answered else where, please point me to the right place. Since only ICE is replaced and we are all focus on the ICE itself. Given the fuel flow is limited (constant max), There is only so much energy can be generated from fuel. I remember these past few year, Honda was trying to find that balance of ICE power and what is recovered by MGU-H. When ICE is so efficient, you lose energy to be recovered by H after driving the Turbo? So how do you DRIVE the ICE harder in a sense and be able to sustain that power as a PU lap after lap? You have to charge the battery at some point right?