2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

[AngusF1]

The circuit: wow, I wouldn't want to be driving it myself but the onboards feel like a warp tunnel. Very cool and good to see the drivers being challenged.

The 'Stappen: Seems to think that driving off the circuit short-cutting a corner then barging his opponent of the track, and brake-checking, are acceptable motorsport tactics. This shouldn't be tolerated and it's time for a superlicense ban. Preferably for a year so he can go back to Formula 3 in a middling car and learn how to race safely.

You say that last part as a joke I'm sure, but his race craft genuinely looks like the kind of thing you see in unranked online racing lobbies.

... Yep.

And no, I'm actually serious. Barging opponents while unsafely re-entering the track and brake-checking aren't tolerated even in the lowest pleb online servers, let alone any real race in real vehicles, let alone Formule O.... wait.

[FWandE]

It was pretty clear to anyone with a brain who saw the Brazilian GP that Max had decided as WC leader that collisions favoured him. Sadly this sort of driving has plagued F1 before Schumacher-Hill , Prost- Senna & Senna - Prost to name just three. Now we go to the last race with a winner take all situation.......except it isn't winner takes all, it is Max wins if Lewis doesn't finish. Given what I have seen, not just the last three races but all season from Max & RB I am worried.
Of course Max & RedBull will try to win fair & square if they can. As long as it looks like Max will finish ahead of Lewis they will play fair. The problem will come the moment it looks like Lewis might finish ahead of Max. I hope I'm wrong but I fear that Max & RedBull will resort to almost anything to stop Lewis finishing ahead of Max.
Then, if Lewis manages to avoid whatever Max and RedBull are able to do in the race I am almost certain that RedBull will try to make legal challenges which could even drag on into next season. I can also see the social media claims of Lewis &/or Mercedes "stole" the world championship backed up by video clips of supposed illegal wings, suspensions, brakes, steering etc. I'm not looking forward to it.
I also predict that if Max finishes ahead of Lewis in the last race without having to resort to any questionable tactics then Lewis and Mercedes will congratulate Max & RedBull, perhaps a bit grudgingly, and that will be the end of it.
I'm already looking forward to 2022 and hoping for clean hard racing with several teams and drivers in the hunt for race wins. The sooner 2021 is over, the better as far as I am concerned.

[radosav]

There is no bottom for FIA, really.

What the heck are they doing? Max (according to them) caused a collision by brake-checking LH and he's handed a convenient 10-sec penalty? After all his shenanigans today??

So, Masi can tell to Mercedes "There, I penalized Verstappen twice, I'm not incompetent" and we're supposed to say OK? And fuel Red Bull's story that they are getting slammed for "fair and tough fighting"??

Jesus.

Hmm, and why Lewis followed Max so close behind, he had room on left to overtake, or just position his car on left side without overtaking him? Because he didn't wan't to give Max DRS . They both played that game, just Max being more guilty than Lewis so he got penalty.
But saying poor Lewis got confused and hit bad Max is laughable .

Get a grip man. With so much VSC, SC, VSC incidents, the leader backing off without any warning from his own team whatsoever, in THE MIDDLE OF THE TRACK, you're bound to just slot in behind. The steward's decision tells the rest of the story. You can't spin this.

What if Max had engine blow, or transmision blocking rear wheels?
The driver behind him should follow him no matter what??
Seven time world champion chasing Max lap after lap after lap, and then he gets confused like he got driving licence yesterday???
Lewis knows all tricks and strategies this sport has, and you are trying to spin this. Max got small penalty because judges knew Lewis's role in this incident, you just don't wan't to admit it.
But that is your problem.

[BlueCheetah66]

But saying poor Lewis got confused and hit bad Max is laughable .

Exactly.

Which is why nobody is saying that.

Which is why the stewards gave Max a time penalty and two points on his super license for his brake checking that caused the collision.

I am fine with penalty, but giving one driver penalty doesn't make other driver innocent, or this case clear black and white.
Truth is very gray, and they both hold their part of responsibility, with FIA included.

This is probably the best way to sum up this incident. Many people are taking this penalty decision as proof that Verstappen and only Verstappen is to blame, without considering that while Max was the predominant contributor in this incident, there were many factors that you can attribute some of the blame towards.

[the poster below]

Just watching the channel 4 highlights and there's a slow mo replay of the lap 37 incident at turn 1. The red bull rear wing is moving up and down like a pogo stick - fluttering of some sort? Helping to do I don't know what, assuming it's by design.

[radosav]

Exactly.

Which is why nobody is saying that.

Which is why the stewards gave Max a time penalty and two points on his super license for his brake checking that caused the collision.

I am fine with penalty, but giving one driver penalty doesn't make other driver innocent, or this case clear black and white.
Truth is very gray, and they both hold their part of responsibility, with FIA included.

This is probably the best way to sum up this incident. Many people are taking this penalty decision as proof that Verstappen and only Verstappen is to blame, without considering that while Max was the predominant contributor in this incident, there were many factors that you can attribute some of the blame towards.

Exactly.

[mika vs michael]

When Hamilton brake tested Vettel in Baku it was Vettel that got the penalty. Verstappen is the new Senna...Maybe because Mercedes has won the political game in F1, FIA are desperately trying to help Hamilton break the Michael Schumacher 7 titles record...
Has Verstappen been voted driver of the day because F1 fans like dirty tricks? I think not. He's been voted because they think he's more genuine. All that controversy is not bad for the sport. It happened again in the past after all...between legends of the sport. Let's hope that this rivalry goes on in 2022 and beyond.

[Hoffman900]

Let’s be real as well, this little gamesmanship that resulted in the brake check to begin with, is because of the FIA’s gimmick DRS.

Has Verstappen been voted driver of the day because F1 fans like dirty tricks? I think not. He's been voted because they think he's more genuine.

No. He was voted because the “orange army” are rabid and flood the votes. It’s a popularity contest.

I wish Senna was around, because I really think he would tell us what he thinks, one way or another.

The FIA lost a lot of credibility. The negotiating with Redbull, even if it always existed, from an optics standpoint, looks bad. Rules are rules, there shouldn’t be any negotiations.

[the poster below]

When Hamilton brake tested Vettel in Baku it was Vettel that got the penalty. Verstappen is the new Senna...Maybe because Mercedes has won the political game in F1, FIA are desperately trying to help Hamilton break the Michael Schumacher 7 titles record...
Has Verstappen been voted driver of the day because F1 fans like dirty tricks? I think not. He's been voted because they think he's more genuine. All that controversy is not bad for the sport. It happened again in the past after all...between legends of the sport. Let's hope that this rivalry goes on in 2022 and beyond.

Hamilton was judged not to have brake tested him. I remember there being several safety car restarts and I believe he was found to have performed the restart acceleration and braking sequences the same way each time. Vettel was penalised for his response to feeling like he had been brake tested: https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... vettel.pdf

[f1jcw]

I don’t think either deserve to win or lose the WDc. Let’s just call it a draw.

[Jolle]

They should of given Verstappen a 30 second penalty (a 10s stop and go) so he wouldn’t be leading the championship going into the final race. This way he’s going to be trying to DNF the pair of them at the first opportunity he gets next week.

[GrizzleBoy]

When Hamilton brake tested Vettel in Baku it was Vettel that got the penalty. Verstappen is the new Senna...Maybe because Mercedes has won the political game in F1, FIA are desperately trying to help Hamilton break the Michael Schumacher 7 titles record...
Has Verstappen been voted driver of the day because F1 fans like dirty tricks? I think not. He's been voted because they think he's more genuine. All that controversy is not bad for the sport. It happened again in the past after all...between legends of the sport. Let's hope that this rivalry goes on in 2022 and beyond.

You typed all that out when you invalidated your whole argument by showing lack of any understanding of either situation in your very first sentence.

In Baku they were behind a safety car. All cars are going slowly and are free to accelerate, slow down, weave etc as they feel to keep tyres warm or whatever.

Today, Max braked to slow down to almost a crawl by F1 car standards, toward the end of a high speed straight where you expect to see hundreds of kph on the dash, for no reason (could have just pulled to the side and lifted), while the race was still active.

Also, in Baku, the stewards looked at the telemetry and saw that Ham did not brake erratically and cause the crash.

Today, the stewards looked at the telemetry and saw that Max braked significantly and erratically and caused the crash.

Finally though, the most embarassing thing about your comparison is that Vettel then sped up to go wheel to wheel with Ham having already crashing into the back of him, and drove his car into the side of Lewis on purpose.

So its a bit of an Apples and Cucumbers comparison you're making there.

[PlatinumZealot]

Can we have a picture link to the telemetry?

In my mind atm it's a non penalty incident with max more too blame, but a sharp braking manoeuvre like that would change my opinion to be a penalty needed incident... Of course change my opinions based on what facts we see...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FF4JHXrXwAE0P0z?format=jpg

Nastier than I imagined actually.

Anyone analysing this graph keep in mind that the bottom axis is distance, not time. Time would be useful for an accident, but for now keep in mind that at a given moment in time Max is tens of meters up the road so his telemetry has a shift to the right.

We can see where Max lifts then slams on the brakes 100% to catch Lewis out then he floors it again.

This is not how you give up a position. You are also not allowed to slow unneccessarily in the high speed parts of the track.

Brake test? Well... It smells like one.. I think Max was trying to compromise Lewis because Max he knew his tyres were about to be dead. It was race for DRS but it effectively turned into a brake test.

[dans79]

Has Verstappen been voted driver of the day because F1 fans like dirty tricks? I think not. He's been voted because they think he's more genuine.

No. He was voted because the “orange army” are rabid and flood the votes. It’s a popularity contest.

Yea, it shows how lowsome some of them are.

2 penalties, and attempts to take out an opponent. And they all think it's perfectly fine!

[ringo]

There is no bottom for FIA, really.

What the heck are they doing? Max (according to them) caused a collision by brake-checking LH and he's handed a convenient 10-sec penalty? After all his shenanigans today??

So, Masi can tell to Mercedes "There, I penalized Verstappen twice, I'm not incompetent" and we're supposed to say OK? And fuel Red Bull's story that they are getting slammed for "fair and tough fighting"??

Jesus.

Hmm, and why Lewis followed Max so close behind, he had room on left to overtake, or just position his car on left side without overtaking him? Because he didn't wan't to give Max DRS . They both played that game, just Max being more guilty than Lewis so he got penalty.
But saying poor Lewis got confused and hit bad Max is laughable .

Lewis did not break any rules, he can drive as slow as he feels like. At least he is driving fairly and not meddling in Max's race. He was not even instructed that he was to overtake Max and so did the right thing when seeing a will Max Verstappen suddenly driving slowly. Max on the other hand is just blatantly trying to take out another driver.