Tweak to red flag rules

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dave kumar
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Tweak to red flag rules

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I saw this posted on another forum so credit goes to Roope Pöyry in the comments section:
https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/06/fre ... ed-norris/
Changing tyres is not really the issue here. After a red flag they should continue in the same order which was after the last lap under green flag conditions. Everyone can change tyres...
I think this is a simple tweak to the rules that means that you aren't penalised for making a pit stop during a safety car period. Alternatively, just close the pits during VSC / full safety car conditions.

By the way, I think Norris is wrong. There are so many chance occurrences that can change the complexion of a race that to single out this rule is a bit of an overreaction but if it can be fixed by a small tweak then why not.
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El Scorchio
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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dave kumar wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:43 am
I saw this posted on another forum so credit goes to Roope Pöyry in the comments section:
https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/06/fre ... ed-norris/
Changing tyres is not really the issue here. After a red flag they should continue in the same order which was after the last lap under green flag conditions. Everyone can change tyres...
I think this is a simple tweak to the rules that means that you aren't penalised for making a pit stop during a safety car period. Alternatively, just close the pits during VSC / full safety car conditions.

By the way, I think Norris is wrong. There are so many chance occurrences that can change the complexion of a race that to single out this rule is a bit of an overreaction but if it can be fixed by a small tweak then why not.
I think it was a little bit of sour grapes from Norris as he's one of the ones who lost out because of the timing so I can understand him saying that. It's one of those that sometimes works for you and sometimes works against you. It would be 'fairer' to state you can only change tyres if they are found to be damaged by an FIA or Pirelli person which may be a tweak I'd suggest- but then it may make the red flag unfair on those who were about to pit vs those who just have. There's just no perfect solution so it's probably necessary to accept you're either lucky or unlucky when it happens.

DChemTech
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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One could also argue that the red flag is unfair in that people can repair their car then. Some people will benefit, others will not. We've seen a few cases this year where Lewis had a huge benefit from a red flag, and now we had one where Max had some benefit. Those benefits don't always feel just, and sure, we can hypothesize about what 'fairer' rules may look like (I did so as well when Lewis was greatly benefitting in Imola), but the situation will always be that some will benefit more than others.

Jolle
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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It’s part of the game. When Hamilton pitted I was like… noooo that’s a red flag with those barrières. Same with Verstappen at the Hungarian GP.

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dave kumar
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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I agree with all of the above but what about Roope Pöyry's suggestion. If we take the order from the last lap under green flag conditions AND we allow repairs/tyre change after a red flag, then is this fairer? Seems so to me.
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basti313
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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DChemTech wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:00 pm
One could also argue that the red flag is unfair in that people can repair their car then. Some people will benefit, others will not. We've seen a few cases this year where Lewis had a huge benefit from a red flag, and now we had one where Max had some benefit. Those benefits don't always feel just, and sure, we can hypothesize about what 'fairer' rules may look like (I did so as well when Lewis was greatly benefitting in Imola), but the situation will always be that some will benefit more than others.
Absolutely. Depending on who is affected in which way we hear different noise.

For me the situation is good as it is:
- SC tire changes are questionable by themselves. It hat a good reason why the pit lane was closed in the past. It is hard to discuss fair/unfair in this regard.
- In 90% of the cases the red flag comes or has to come out quickly. Both in Hungary and Saudi we had cases where the race director was simply too slow with the red flag. From previous crashes like Schumacher they must have known, that this is clearly a damage on the most relevant TecPro. So usually this is not even playing a role.
- If we come to a situation where we change back to a previous order like on a race end with red flag we come to a highly unfair situation for people who did nice overtakes. This is known from race ending red flags.
- No tire change is highly unfair as used tires can never be brought up to temp for a standing start.
- For a everyone changes and sets back to initial order at SC deployment we have an issue with tire rules. Perez fitted hard tires under SC and then could switch back to medium for the restart.
- We will always have damage repairs or similar. Just setting everything back is unfair to those staying clean.

I think the current solution is the most fair under the circumstances that any other solution brings more unfair issues with it. Who gambles on a SC tire change needs to gamble. Nothing wrong with this.

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codetower
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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I think it should stay as it is. It's a fair rule that applies to all drivers/teams. No one was forced to pit, no one was forced to stay out.

Many elements of an F1 race need to be evaluated quickly for risk vs reward; Undercuts, going long on a set of tyres, etc. Many drivers took a risk pitting early under the SC (including Leclerc whom I'm rooting for) and it didn't play out in their favor. Sometimes the gamble pays off, sometimes it doesn't.
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Stu
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:02 pm
It’s part of the game. When Hamilton pitted I was like… noooo that’s a red flag with those barrières. Same with Verstappen at the Hungarian GP.
However Lewis had done a full engineering assessment of the barriers (with a car still in them) during the very brief safety car period, so there really was no need for the red flag anyway. Man.
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Cuky
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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dave kumar wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:27 pm
I agree with all of the above but what about Roope Pöyry's suggestion. If we take the order from the last lap under green flag conditions AND we allow repairs/tyre change after a red flag, then is this fairer? Seems so to me.
I wouldn't see that as fair. Say they run 4-5 laps behind SC when it turns out that the race has to be stopped. And 70% of the field already pitted. If you are resetting positions back to what they were on the last full green lap then there are a lot more questions that open up:
- what about those laps completed under the SC? Do we reset the lap counter as well? If not, is changing the race order in the middle of the race to something else without there being penalties really "fair"?
- what about those who risked staying out on older tires in a bid to have better track position at the SC restart only for them to loose what they risked and have less laps to do something?
- why even bother with SC at all if there is a risk of a red flag? Why not just instantly red flag the race?

FIA tried to tinker what teams can do under SC and it usually lasted for a year before returning to what we have now. Remember for example 2007 when they couldn't pit under the SC. But some drivers had to pit just then because they would otherwise be out of fuel and out of race so they were penalized. Was that fair? To penalize someone just because SC came at the exact moment when they planned to pit few hours/days ago?

The current situation is the fairest in my opinion. You can choose what you want to do? Do you pit? Do you risk staying out? Sometimes you gain, sometimes you loose. One time you'd be lucky and instead of being lap down with broken car you'll be fighting for a win. The other time you'll pit from say 2nd and re-start the race in 14th because you were unlucky.

windy1603
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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Its only the tyres that most people have a problem with. The easy answer is like for like replacement same as parts.

Therefore if you are on hards you have to fit hards and if you have not pitted for the other compound you therefore have to stop again.

So if you did pit under safety car etc for the other tyre you may loose position on a red flag restart but those that did not pit still have to pit later in the race to use both compounds.

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WaikeCU
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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I think the reason why they allow tire change during red flag is because to not have a mismatch of tire differences on the grid. That's what I think. When half the grid is on the fresh softest tire and half the other cars are on the old hardest compound, imagine the chaos it will create when they launch from a standing start.

Plus don't we sometimes have where cars have pitted before the pit is closed because of safety car on track? Imagine other cars haven't pitted and can't pit because it's closed, before they red flag it. In that case it would mean they still can't change tires if they are not allowed to change tires during a red flag situation.

Jolle
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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What if… no tire change during a red flag.

You are in front, everybody pits and then there is a red flag.
Now you start from pole with shot tires. Not only unsafe (you’ll be a roadblock braking into turn one) but also fall back to last place when you do pit.

So, no changing tires is not the solution and even unsafe.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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windy1603 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:19 pm
Its only the tyres that most people have a problem with. The easy answer is like for like replacement same as parts.

Therefore if you are on hards you have to fit hards and if you have not pitted for the other compound you therefore have to stop again.

So if you did pit under safety car etc for the other tyre you may loose position on a red flag restart but those that did not pit still have to pit later in the race to use both compounds.

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That makes sense. I think the tyre changing is allowed because a red flag is most likely in a situation where there is a lot of debris on track following a big shunt. Debris means more risk of tyres being cut and so more risk of a failure. So changing the tyres means less risk of a failure. That seems reasonable. But your idea of replacing tyres like-for-like and still having to meet the 2-compound rule is quite a nice way around it.
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siskue2005
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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What if you can change tyres during red flag, but u can only replace the current tyre with the same compound. That way everyone will have fresh tyres, no complains of tyre damage.

Jolle
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Re: Tweak to red flag rules

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siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:34 pm
What if you can change tyres during red flag, but u can only replace the current tyre with the same compound. That way everyone will have fresh tyres, no complains of tyre damage.
Not everyone has those tires available. Just last race, everyone wants new tires then, even when they are 2 laps old.