More rules please, giving the place back rule

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dave kumar
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More rules please, giving the place back rule

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I don't think that just adding more rules to a sport is always a good idea but here's another idea to improve the sport. I propose a rule to formalise the gentleman's agreement about how to give a place back when you've left the track in the process of overtaking another car, (let's mention no names here).

Got a couple of ideas:

Once you have given the place back, you cannot retake that place until 2 corners have been completed.This is to avoid the 'I'm giving up the place, thanks for it back', situation as Hamilton was famously penalised for in Spa 2008 vs Raikkonen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Belgian_Grand_Prix
Two hours after the race, the FIA stewards for the race issued a statement announcing that Hamilton was guilty of contravening Article 30.3 (a) of the 2008 FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations and Appendix L, Chapter 4, Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code, which both state that cutting a chicane and gaining an advantage is subject to a drive-through penalty. As the race had finished, a 25-second penalty was added to Hamilton's time instead.[34] As a result of this penalty, Massa was promoted to winner of the Grand Prix, and Hamilton was dropped down to third position
If you don't like the above suggestion, then how about the driver has to give back the place on the following lap at the same place on the track that the original offence was deemed to have occurred. Then we avoid the 'I'm giving back the place but then I'll do it at a place on the track of my choosing so as to maximise my chance of getting the place back again' situation we've seen many times before. Both drivers should be given clear instructions that this is going to happen and we have a whole lap for the communication to occur so they are both prepared.

Is it futile to ask that we don't discuss yesterday's race here? I just want to know if it is even required to formalise something so seemingly simple as 'giving up a place'. The above suggestions will also no doubt be exploited so really I'd like to see more sportsmanship and less gamesmanship but that is probably wishful thinking.
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El Scorchio
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Re: More rules please, giving the place back rule

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I think after yesterday they might add to the rule that you're not allowed to give back a place in such an area of the track where you'll get DRS on the driver you've given the place back to.

Also, a 25 sec penalty for that in 2008 seems mad overkill under today's rules! Hit and miss as to whether it even gets a penalty these days.

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dave kumar
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Re: More rules please, giving the place back rule

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:38 pm
I think after yesterday they might add to the rule that you're not allowed to give back a place in such an area of the track where you'll get DRS on the driver you've given the place back to.
That was my first reaction but then I thought it was more elegant to require it be given back at the same point on the track as the offence was deemed to have occurred. It's like a replay, if it was just before a DRS zone then so be it. That's what would have happened the first time around if the second driver had not left the track to keep the position (and deemed to have 'gained a lasting advantage').
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El Scorchio
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Re: More rules please, giving the place back rule

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dave kumar wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:44 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:38 pm
I think after yesterday they might add to the rule that you're not allowed to give back a place in such an area of the track where you'll get DRS on the driver you've given the place back to.
That was my first reaction but then I thought it was more elegant to require it be given back at the same point on the track as the offence was deemed to have occurred. It's like a replay, if it was just before a DRS zone then so be it. That's what would have happened the first time around if the second driver had not left the track to keep the position (and deemed to have 'gained a lasting advantage').
It depends though, as you could come from more than 1sec behind and gain an advantage like that so it would still be a bit dodgy and also a lot can happen within a lap as we saw yesterday! Also there might be a lapped car getting in the way next time round etc. or if it's near pit exit a car feeding back onto the track who won't have a clue what's going on. I think a bit of common sense is enough. Next available sensible place after being told to, and not at a DRS detection point.

But you can see how difficult sometimes it is to come up with a one size fits all rule that works in every situation! Masi really made a pig's ear of things yesterday (to the point where Ross Brawn had to give him a pep talk allegedly) but it IS still a hard job to do. I just wish he were better at it sometimes.

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feni_remmen
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Re: More rules please, giving the place back rule

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This one is easy and obvious. I have thought this since 2008. You must give the place back and cannot overtake again for 1 full lap after giving up the place. It might seem draconian, but at least it is fair and avoids the problems created by what Lewis did in 2008 at spa. The problem with all these rules is that they don't just apply to the leaders. This is going on throughout the grid and all these discussions are going on right down the grid.

Like they trialled at brands hatch; they should just have active sensors on the cars that limit the peak engine output for 30 seconds after you exceed track limits. Even then there are problems, like being forced wide by a competitor and suffering the output limitation. I am a much bigger fan of catastrophic damage for exceeding track limits, but no one else seems to want to see cars out of the race for going off course.
Last edited by feni_remmen on Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dave kumar
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Re: More rules please, giving the place back rule

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:38 pm
But you can see how difficult sometimes it is to come up with a one size fits all rule that works in every situation! Masi really made a pig's ear of things yesterday (to the point where Ross Brawn had to give him a pep talk allegedly) but it IS still a hard job to do. I just wish he were better at it sometimes.
Interesting and not all that surprising. It was really badly handled by Race Control and that just muddied the waters even more. You make some good points. A lap is a long time to hold station, ready for the swap back but somehow I'm drawn to the elegance of replaying the overtake again at the same place on the track and then letting them race from there.
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Jolle
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Re: More rules please, giving the place back rule

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For the past few years it’s became apparent that there are new rules needed because of one driver.
The sad part of this, he’s not a bad driver, in fact, he’s a one in a generation talent. But somehow he’s acting like a spoiled kid, throwing a tantrum and kicking shins every time it doesn’t go his way. With nobody putting their foot down with a “and now it’s enough”.

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El Scorchio
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Re: More rules please, giving the place back rule

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dave kumar wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:19 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:38 pm
But you can see how difficult sometimes it is to come up with a one size fits all rule that works in every situation! Masi really made a pig's ear of things yesterday (to the point where Ross Brawn had to give him a pep talk allegedly) but it IS still a hard job to do. I just wish he were better at it sometimes.
Interesting and not all that surprising. It was really badly handled by Race Control and that just muddied the waters even more. You make some good points. A lap is a long time to hold station, ready for the swap back but somehow I'm drawn to the elegance of replaying the overtake again at the same place on the track and then letting them race from there.
I do like the idea of going back to the scene of the transgression to right the wrong, I have to say. I just wonder if it adds too much complication.

Totally agree with the race control thing. I've been disapproving of Masi for a long time and I think he was unqualified for the job and got it because he'd happened to be job shadowing Charlie around the unfortunate time he passed away. Granted that was a tough race to keep control of, but he had a nightmare.

komninosm
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Re: More rules please, giving the place back rule

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:32 pm
For the past few years it’s became apparent that there are new rules needed because of one driver.
The sad part of this, he’s not a bad driver, in fact, he’s a one in a generation talent. But somehow he’s acting like a spoiled kid, throwing a tantrum and kicking shins every time it doesn’t go his way. With nobody putting their foot down with a “and now it’s enough”.
Yeah the rule should be give position back as soon as possible, preferably on the same spot next lap or before it (not after 1 lap has passed, then you get 5s penalty). And do not overtake again until that same spot +1 corner.
And give position back gracefully, don't weave on the track and no braking like this:

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hollus
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Re: More rules please, giving the place back rule

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The “do not pass back for one lap” is wonderful. Easy, effective, enough of a punishment for what was a trangression in the first place, works at the front and works at the back. Yet lenient enough that if it gets applied unfairly it does not ruin the race.
Only wart is that botched overtaking attempt for the lead in the penultimate lap. and even that works to draw sensible limits.
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bidong
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Re: More rules please, giving the place back rule

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Without changing the rules much, let's just put it as no re-overtaking in the next two braking zones; with chicanes considered as one braking zone, after a car has been let through and no DRS for the penalty lap and the succeeding lap for the penalized driver.

The FIA should also tell the team, what lap they should surrender the position so that moves will be less "strategic."

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Re: More rules please, giving the place back rule

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Another thing to factor in would be a multiple overtake or an illegal overtake resulting in another (innocent) driver in between. It would work great in this current climate of a 2 driver field that we seem to have.
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Stu
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Re: More rules please, giving the place back rule

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Been thinking about this, there already is a system in place if they wish to apply it.
They use blue flags as a communication with drivers being lapped to ‘let the following car past’, it doesn’t matter where they are on track (they get three flags before they are considered to be holding the following car up).
The same thing could be applied to giving the place back, driver is notified by activation of a light on the steering wheel, then has three flags to let them past.
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