Replace the safety car

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basti313
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Re: Replace the safety car

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:36 pm
basti313 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:11 pm


From my point of view we had these changes for the show...and this is why they are bad. But now we can not just go back as Merc was the loser.....the unlapping will stay, the SC is generally a must have as you need to clean the track with cars lined up behind the SC.
The discussion is not because Mercedes lost. The discussion is about whether there is a better way of dealing with incidents on track that is fairer to all of the teams and drivers. We have had, over the years, lots of times when a safety car has hugely disadvantaged one team/driver and fans of all teams and drivers have had cause to complain at some point because they have fallen foul of it. We've seen the rules changed regarding being able to pit, not being able to pit, etc., as each situation has caused issues.

The safety car is a pretty poor way of dealing with an issue at one point on the track. It causes issues for the drivers because of tyre temperatures and it massively penalises some drivers through no fault of their own whilst benefitting others through pure luck of the draw. That's hardly the "pinnacle of motorsport" is it?

Is the safety car really the best that F1 can come up with to deal with a localised incident on track?
Well...that depends on how they can clean the track. If there is a lot of debris that needs to be removed, you need a safety car. That is the same in any racing series in the world. A slow zone or similar is the same as the VSC.
For me a slow zone instead of the VSC is fine.

But the issue lies somewhere else. The SC issue is big at the moment when the tires are too durable. Look at DTM with the rock solid tires...SC screws your race from first to last if you are unlucky.
If you want to reduce the effect of the SC, then you need more tire changes. At the time when the Pirellis were just melting away we had no discussion of this kind.

oT v1
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Re: Replace the safety car

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Very unpopular but surely the fairest way would be to have aggregate times pre-SC haha. Nobody wants that though, it punishes the fans at the track and makes the timing a nightmare.

To be honest I think the current set up is fine, although in Saudi I feel a full SC would have been quicker to clear the AT carbon fibre on the track. Maybe in a perfect world the marshals would have had a clear gap in traffic…but it the end it took LAPS to clear a few pieces of debris.

Safety for the marshals, and drivers if a course vehicle joins the circuit, has to be number 1. A clarification and simplifying of the rules will happen after this FIA farce in Abu Dhabi I’m sure.

Spa was worse IMO, in a perfect world I wouldn’t allow SC laps to count solely toward a result.
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nokivasara
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Re: Replace the safety car

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I think it's fine to have a safety car, it only needs to have clear rules. Either you let cars unlap or you don't, but if it's done the same way every time I think it's ok.

I'm leaning more to having the pits closed during the SC. It's out because of an accident, no need to let cars pit at that time.

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banibhusan
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Re: Replace the safety car

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Why not red flag the race whenever there is a severe crash that requires cleaning up the debris from the track or even fixing the barriers? The drivers waste so many laps behind the safety car instead of more racing (easily 5 laps in the last race if it were done properly) and all we hear are complains that the SC is not driving fast enough (of course it can't go any faster). In all other cases a slow-zone/VSC should be enough to manage.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Replace the safety car

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nokivasara wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:04 pm
I think it's fine to have a safety car, it only needs to have clear rules. Either you let cars unlap or you don't, but if it's done the same way every time I think it's ok.

I'm leaning more to having the pits closed during the SC. It's out because of an accident, no need to let cars pit at that time.
I think one of the arguments about having the pits open is that cars might be running that were involved in the incident or caught up by a flying bit of debris. So you'd have a damaged car circulating and which could end up causing other issues or even crashing. Likewise tyre damage from pieces of debris.

It's a complicated subject when one gets down to the nitty gritty of it. It's why I thought a separate topic would be interesting. As we can see already, there are many views on the subject.
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nokivasara
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Re: Replace the safety car

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:54 pm
nokivasara wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:04 pm
I think it's fine to have a safety car, it only needs to have clear rules. Either you let cars unlap or you don't, but if it's done the same way every time I think it's ok.

I'm leaning more to having the pits closed during the SC. It's out because of an accident, no need to let cars pit at that time.
I think one of the arguments about having the pits open is that cars might be running that were involved in the incident or caught up by a flying bit of debris. So you'd have a damaged car circulating and which could end up causing other issues or even crashing. Likewise tyre damage from pieces of debris.

It's a complicated subject when one gets down to the nitty gritty of it. It's why I thought a separate topic would be interesting. As we can see already, there are many views on the subject.
That's true, didn't think about damaged cars/tyres.
It not an easy subject.

To red flag every time there's a stalled car or debris on the track seems a bit complicated too, I don't think the cars are happy with being shut off several times during a race.

Edit: the slow zone idea might be the best alternative afterall, that way if the pits are open there is not as big of an advantage to pit as there is with a slow SC.

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Big Tea
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Re: Replace the safety car

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The safety car worked fine when Charlie was in charge
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El Scorchio
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Re: Replace the safety car

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:32 pm
The safety car worked fine when Charlie was in charge
Agree. Last season red flags and safety cars started getting used far more often in races and dare I say it 'strategically' to bunch up or reset races at certain points. There have been plenty of incidences when VSC would have been fine and appropriate instead, but then there's no real drama in that, is there?

it's been used as much as a tool to create drama than an actual incident appropriate safety procedure in recent years.

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Stu
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Re: Replace the safety car

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I like the idea of slow zones (with pit-lane speed limiter activated), but can you imagine the arguments and finger-pointing (not to mention how to monitor) about where the speed limit lines are! VSC sort of works, but I would rather see a blanket lap delta rather than a woolly “reduce speed by 40%”.
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NL_Fer
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Re: Replace the safety car

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I believe the VSC is there to slow down the cars. The SC is to bunch up the pack, close to eachother. So that when the pack is passed, the Marshalls have a clear track to work with, unit the pack comes by again.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Replace the safety car

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Stu wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:51 pm
I like the idea of slow zones (with pit-lane speed limiter activated), but can you imagine the arguments and finger-pointing (not to mention how to monitor) about where the speed limit lines are! VSC sort of works, but I would rather see a blanket lap delta rather than a woolly “reduce speed by 40%”.
I don't see why it can't just be "apply the pit lane limiter" or some other set speed (a VSC button on the wheel could be used to initiate/end it) and close the pits for tyre changes. Then everyone is at the same speed, the race is held in abeyance with no one gaining/losing. The incident is dealt with safely for the marshals and it's fair to all competitors.
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Big Tea
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Re: Replace the safety car

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NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:09 pm
I believe the VSC is there to slow down the cars. The SC is to bunch up the pack, close to eachother. So that when the pack is passed, the Marshalls have a clear track to work with, unit the pack comes by again.
The only way around this is to have alternate roads available to bypass the accident area. Even if it possible with new tracks and easily adapted at others there is no way it will be done at places like Monaco, so it is probably better to have one blanket rule than start splitting off between venues.
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Edax
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Re: Replace the safety car

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NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:09 pm
I believe the VSC is there to slow down the cars. The SC is to bunch up the pack, close to eachother. So that when the pack is passed, the Marshalls have a clear track to work with, unit the pack comes by again.
That, but the cars are also expected to line up behind the safety car. The rule is not very clearly written but I assume line-up means that one is not permitted to stray too far from the line the safety car is taking.

Vsc just slows down the pack. Which is perfectly fine if the marshals are working off track. But in case there is debris or people working on track the safety car is used to guide them through. It can even guide them through pit lane or over an escape road or stop them if necessary.

I think the benefit of having an extra pair of eyes on track as well as a big flashy follow-me sign is hard to replace by radios and cameras alone . Considering that the drivers are busy watching the tires, changing settings and discussing strategy with the wall I wouldn’t leave it to them.

notsofast
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Re: Replace the safety car

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oT v1 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:24 pm
Very unpopular but surely the fairest way would be to have aggregate times pre-SC haha. Nobody wants that though, it punishes the fans at the track and makes the timing a nightmare.
Perhaps a viable variation on this could be to red-flag the race regardless of the severity of the accident if at least 20% of the race distance has been covered since the start or previous red flag, and award points 5-3-2-1 and then restart the race. This would be easier to understand than aggregate times, and the drivers receive points for what they achieved thus far.

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diffuser
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Re: Replace the safety car

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notsofast wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:12 pm
oT v1 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:24 pm
Very unpopular but surely the fairest way would be to have aggregate times pre-SC haha. Nobody wants that though, it punishes the fans at the track and makes the timing a nightmare.
Perhaps a viable variation on this could be to red-flag the race regardless of the severity of the accident if at least 20% of the race distance has been covered since the start or previous red flag, and award points 5-3-2-1 and then restart the race. This would be easier to understand than aggregate times, and the drivers receive points for what they achieved thus far.
There really isn't anything wrong with the SC as long as it is always used the same way. That way teams can strategise around it. The problem is when you expect and plan for one thing and they do something else.