2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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holeindalip
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Aesop wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:55 pm
Short version: Masi should've let the lapped cars unlap in lap 56.
Long version: 164 pages and counting.
The track wasn’t clear yet to allow the faster speeds of the lapped cars

alexx_88
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:10 pm
alexx_88 wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:02 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:31 pm


Can you imagine!? Although I'm pretty glad they didn't. That would have been the height of cynicism!
I think it would've been a slam dunk penalty. Why stop the car on track?
Yeah, but a penalty for Bottas. And that wouldn't have stopped the team and the other driver from taking the two titles.

It's entirely underhand and not the sort of thing one would expect other than from the likes of Briatore.
No, a penalty for Mercedes, unless you're suggesting Bottas would've came up with the idea himself? Which I think is a tall order for a guy who made 2012 Brazil Webber look like the perfect teammate in Sunday's race. He would've essentially ended his career in F1 for such a move.

Mulman
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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I think I figured it out.

What if the retirement of checo in P3 was the deal For Ferrari to be willing to do it in the way it went? Take p3, no chance for p2. Stroll and Riccardo were running between Checo and Max. Behind Checo was Sainz. This way they could stop the unlapping after Max have one lap of racing we all heard.

We also all heard the negotiations before the restart in Qatar, it may have happend here. Ferrari gained, Norris restart pretty safe, they accept, Alpha Tauri will not complain, alternative for stroll and Ricciardo would be finnish behind the SC no loss.

Everybody knew and except Mercedes all aggreed it would be perfect to restart it that Way. It was negotiated. Except mercedes nobody has complained, strange. Michael Masi did not make this up on his own. Earlier in Belgium it was problably Toto himself who complained heavy after Spa, that no matter what races should be finnished under green flag to not affect the actual racing. Probably at least 1 lap of racing is all they need Whitmarsh called it, perhaps Toto's words? Masi also said problably the other words Toto did in Belgium "It's called motor racing", Toto meant the same cruising behind the SC towards the finnish in Belgium. We don't know what happend behind the scene, but something for sure.

They did not mention names but explained it explicitely in the desicion. Masi arranged what Toto asked for.

javspace
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Mulman wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:44 am
I think I figured it out.

What if the retirement of checo in P3 was the deal For Ferrari to be willing to do it in the way it went? Take p3, no chance for p2. Stroll and Riccardo were running between Checo and Max. Behind Checo was Sainz. This way they could stop the unlapping after Max have one lap of racing we all heard.

We also all heard the negotiations before the restart in Qatar, it may have happend here. Ferrari gained, Norris restart pretty safe, they accept, Alpha Tauri will not complain, alternative for stroll and Ricciardo would be finnish behind the SC no loss.

Everybody knew and except Mercedes all aggreed it would be perfect to restart it that Way. It was negotiated. Except mercedes nobody has complained, strange. Michael Masi did not make this up on his own. Earlier in Belgium it was problably Toto himself who complained heavy after Spa, that no matter what races should be finnished under green flag to not affect the actual racing. Probably at least 1 lap of racing is all they need Whitmarsh called it, perhaps Toto's words? Masi also said problably the other words Toto did in Belgium "It's called motor racing", Toto meant the same cruising behind the SC towards the finnish in Belgium. We don't know what happend behind the scene, but something for sure.

They did not mention names but explained it explicitely in the desicion. Masi arranged what Toto asked for.
Not to say that this is totally absurd but during that frantic few laps could they really have had time to talk amongst each other and agree something like this?

draw73
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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I’m starting to think they should annull the whole 2021 WDC. No way you can adjust the result of this race and award the championship to either driver. If you don’t count this race results Max would win on the count back rule. Not fair on Lewis as he would have won this race if Masi hadn’t made the rules up as he went. If you give Lewis the win Max loses out for no fault of his own. Annull the championship and no one loses to their competitor.


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cheeRS
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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draw73 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:57 am
I’m starting to think they should annull the whole 2021 WDC. No way you can adjust the result of this race and award the championship to either driver. If you don’t count this race results Max would win on the count back rule. Not fair on Lewis as he would have won this race if Masi hadn’t made the rules up as he went. If you give Lewis the win Max loses out for no fault of his own. Annull the championship and no one loses to their competitor.


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At this point, I have to support this idea. Sure, the details would have to be worked out, but it's a better conclusion overall. It doesn't change how brilliant Max and Lewis were over the whole season. Lewis fans feel gutted and frustrated right now, but deep down inside Max fans (like myself) also realize that Max (Nor RB) wanted to win the season like this. Sure it's exciting now, but in a few weeks or months time we'll all remember that Max should have lost the championship and that he only won because Masi effectively scripted the ending that way. And that leaves a bitter taste.

Mulman
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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javspace wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:56 am
Mulman wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:44 am
I think I figured it out.

What if the retirement of checo in P3 was the deal For Ferrari to be willing to do it in the way it went? Take p3, no chance for p2. Stroll and Riccardo were running between Checo and Max. Behind Checo was Sainz. This way they could stop the unlapping after Max have one lap of racing we all heard.

We also all heard the negotiations before the restart in Qatar, it may have happend here. Ferrari gained, Norris restart pretty safe, they accept, Alpha Tauri will not complain, alternative for stroll and Ricciardo would be finnish behind the SC no loss.

Everybody knew and except Mercedes all aggreed it would be perfect to restart it that Way. It was negotiated. Except mercedes nobody has complained, strange. Michael Masi did not make this up on his own. Earlier in Belgium it was problably Toto himself who complained heavy after Spa, that no matter what races should be finnished under green flag to not affect the actual racing. Probably at least 1 lap of racing is all they need Whitmarsh called it, perhaps Toto's words? Masi also said problably the other words Toto did in Belgium "It's called motor racing", Toto meant the same cruising behind the SC towards the finnish in Belgium. We don't know what happend behind the scene, but something for sure.

They did not mention names but explained it explicitely in the desicion. Masi arranged what Toto asked for.
Not to say that this is totally absurd but during that frantic few laps could they really have had time to talk amongst each other and agree something like this?
Ferrari would be the hardest part to not complain, that is 1 call. Forgot alpine, but just as for Norris and vettel, it should be a easy decision for them. It must have been done between pitstop perrez and his retirement, 2 Laps aprox 3-4 minutes?

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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draw73 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:57 am
I’m starting to think they should annull the whole 2021 WDC. No way you can adjust the result of this race and award the championship to either driver. If you don’t count this race results Max would win on the count back rule. Not fair on Lewis as he would have won this race if Masi hadn’t made the rules up as he went. If you give Lewis the win Max loses out for no fault of his own. Annull the championship and no one loses to their competitor.


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In the world of "the show", that's not going to happen.

It's would be hugely unfair on Max who is currently enjoying the feeling of having won the title - sure, not in the way he would have wanted, but he'd done enough during the season to make it possible so it's a valid title in that regard. If he'd been well behind in the title and then benefitted from a weird thing like the double points thing from a few years ago, perhaps, but he wasn't. He was there in the fight on the day because he'd earned it during the whole season. So it's not at all fair on Max.

It would be like standing at the alter enjoying your big day and then realising your bride had changed her mind and wasn't going to turn up after all.

It would make no difference to Lewis - he loses nor gains anything from it. I doubt he'd think it was a good idea because it penalises Max for something that he had no part in. Lewis is not that sort of person, I think.

In fact, I can't see how anyone in F1 or who enjoys F1 could welcome that as an answer.
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cheeRS
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:18 am
draw73 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:57 am
I’m starting to think they should annull the whole 2021 WDC. No way you can adjust the result of this race and award the championship to either driver. If you don’t count this race results Max would win on the count back rule. Not fair on Lewis as he would have won this race if Masi hadn’t made the rules up as he went. If you give Lewis the win Max loses out for no fault of his own. Annull the championship and no one loses to their competitor.


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In the world of "the show", that's not going to happen.

It would make no difference to Lewis - he loses nor gains anything from it. I doubt he'd think it was a good idea because it penalises Max for something that he had no part in. Lewis is not that sort of person, I think.

In fact, I can't see how anyone in F1 or who enjoys F1 could welcome that as an answer.
I've been watching F1 since Michael was in his glory years, and I welcome that as an answer more than the answer/conclusion we got.

As far as Lewis, he seems to be more gracious and cordial than Max, but I still think he'd feel better if it were annulled than for Max to have 'beat' him. Think about it - if you and your coworker were competing for a promotion, and you both really wanted to get it, would you feel better if HE got it, or would you feel better if neither got it? If you're competitive, it'd be the latter 100%.

Anyway, I'd argue the annulment would be better for the show anyway. If you're a "real" fan, then you can never be satisfied with this result. It's not the Max barely won, or Lewis almost did (remember 1994, 1997, 2007, 2008, 2012?) but it's that the winner was all but decided by.... the race director. That's what makes this WDC sour and invalid IMO. If Masi said, "Max is DQ'd because passed Lewis before the SC restart" would everyone be saying "well, Lewis deserved to win the WDC because he was equal on points and worked hard anyway"...?

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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cheeRS wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:27 am
[
As far as Lewis, he seems to be more gracious and cordial than Max, but I still think he'd feel better if it were annulled than for Max to have 'beat' him. Think about it - if you and your coworker were competing for a promotion, and you both really wanted to get it, would you feel better if HE got it, or would you feel better if neither got it? If you're competitive, it'd be the latter 100%.

Anyway, I'd argue the annulment would be better for the show anyway. If you're a "real" fan, then you can never be satisfied with this result. It's not the Max barely won, or Lewis almost did (remember 1994, 1997, 2007, 2008, 2012?) but it's that the winner was all but decided by.... the race director. That's what makes this WDC sour and invalid IMO. If Masi said, "Max is DQ'd because passed Lewis before the SC restart" would everyone be saying "well, Lewis deserved to win the WDC because he was equal on points and worked hard anyway"...?
I bet Lewis doesn't think he was beaten by Max, that's the thing. He'd beaten Max in the final race of the season. It was a done deal. Right up until Masi did his thing. So in Lewis's mind, he beat Max over the course of the season even if the final result says otherwise. That knowledge is more important than the silverware once the adrenaline of the event has gone.

So your analogy of job promotions isn't really relevant.

I also don't think he works on the "if I can't have it, no one should" mentality. He's a "I'm coming back better next year to kick everyone's butts" mentality.
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Airshifter
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:24 pm
Not wasting any more of my time on this. Clearly you either leave it to Merc and their lawyers to sort or you go over the same grounds another 1000x times trying to find a smoking gun. If you’re all so dead clever, maybe the FIA should hire you?

Honestly I can live with whatever gets decided. Court/no court. Reversed decision or not. A ruling by a judge or not at all.

This more than likely gets sorted in an office somewhere with no prying eyes as most of these things always do. But happy for that not to be the case

Question is, will you be able to let it be and move on if it does get dropped?
Like yourself, I'm not going down the rabbit hole. We all know that decisions have been at best inconsistent for the entire year, and often in previous years.

I suspect that the vast majority of those most vocal base it on driver or team preference. Why? Because that is the trend. Nobody wants to go back and clear up all the shaky decisions, most just want to adjust at least one decision to allow their driver the title.

It doesn't matter to me in the slightest how any rulings change or don't. I would like to see some rules and enforcement clarification on certain matters myself, but changing history isn't part of my concern.

But to be honest, I've never put a lot of weight on the WDC by itself really. We all know that the vast majority of them deal with car superiority assisted by good to great drivers. There are a few instances where the drivers alone made a big difference, but probably more often not. As such, I tend to base my drivers skills thoughts more on the overall picture, changes to differing teams through the years, how they performed in a lesser car, and other such gauges.


But I expect people will continue these arguments about this year for years. Just like world history, it will be argued from vastly different perspectives and often what was in reality grey area will be stated as black and white.

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:24 pm
Not wasting any more of my time on this. Clearly you either leave it to Merc and their lawyers to sort or you go over the same grounds another 1000x times trying to find a smoking gun. If you’re all so dead clever, maybe the FIA should hire you?

Honestly I can live with whatever gets decided. Court/no court. Reversed decision or not. A ruling by a judge or not at all.

This more than likely gets sorted in an office somewhere with no prying eyes as most of these things always do. But happy for that not to be the case

Question is, will you be able to let it be and move on if it does get dropped?
I probably would but I'll refuse to acknowledge Max won. He just so blatantly didn't. I think Masi getting fired and putting together a group to go over the regulations with a fine tooth comb and remove interpretation from the regulations would go a long way in getting over it.

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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:18 am
draw73 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:57 am
I’m starting to think they should annull the whole 2021 WDC. No way you can adjust the result of this race and award the championship to either driver. If you don’t count this race results Max would win on the count back rule. Not fair on Lewis as he would have won this race if Masi hadn’t made the rules up as he went. If you give Lewis the win Max loses out for no fault of his own. Annull the championship and no one loses to their competitor.


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In the world of "the show", that's not going to happen.

It's would be hugely unfair on Max who is currently enjoying the feeling of having won the title - sure, not in the way he would have wanted, but he'd done enough during the season to make it possible so it's a valid title in that regard. If he'd been well behind in the title and then benefitted from a weird thing like the double points thing from a few years ago, perhaps, but he wasn't. He was there in the fight on the day because he'd earned it during the whole season. So it's not at all fair on Max.

It would be like standing at the alter enjoying your big day and then realising your bride had changed her mind and wasn't going to turn up after all.

It would make no difference to Lewis - he loses nor gains anything from it. I doubt he'd think it was a good idea because it penalises Max for something that he had no part in. Lewis is not that sort of person, I think.

In fact, I can't see how anyone in F1 or who enjoys F1 could welcome that as an answer.
You can't look at feelings, otherwise why don't we just give the trophy to Robert Kubica, he was good enough to win the championship but cause of his own stupidity he got hurt. Boohoo I feel sorry for him, sniff, let's give him the championship. It's formula not little league, where everyone gets trophies.

I doubt they overturn it though.

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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Mulman wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:44 am
I think I figured it out.

What if the retirement of checo in P3 was the deal For Ferrari to be willing to do it in the way it went? Take p3, no chance for p2. Stroll and Riccardo were running between Checo and Max. Behind Checo was Sainz. This way they could stop the unlapping after Max have one lap of racing we all heard.

We also all heard the negotiations before the restart in Qatar, it may have happend here. Ferrari gained, Norris restart pretty safe, they accept, Alpha Tauri will not complain, alternative for stroll and Ricciardo would be finnish behind the SC no loss.

Everybody knew and except Mercedes all aggreed it would be perfect to restart it that Way. It was negotiated. Except mercedes nobody has complained, strange. Michael Masi did not make this up on his own. Earlier in Belgium it was problably Toto himself who complained heavy after Spa, that no matter what races should be finnished under green flag to not affect the actual racing. Probably at least 1 lap of racing is all they need Whitmarsh called it, perhaps Toto's words? Masi also said problably the other words Toto did in Belgium "It's called motor racing", Toto meant the same cruising behind the SC towards the finnish in Belgium. We don't know what happend behind the scene, but something for sure.

They did not mention names but explained it explicitely in the desicion. Masi arranged what Toto asked for.
I dont think so. Masi is probably taking pre raxe discussion with drivers and principals out of context. No one asked for rules to be broken no matter how extreme just to get a lap in. I am sure they meant fly the red flag so as not to consume laps behind the SC.
There is a lot of legal ground for Mercedes to overturn the championship and I think they should do it. It must be done for the survival of F1 as a sport. It's tough to do it, but Max didnt earn the right to be champion. He was beaten over a season until the sport was manipulated one last time for him.
Even if merc wins their case there should be no deal to share to championship, as Max and Redbull his team would have done nothing to earn that right.
For Sure!!

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ringo
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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draw73 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:57 am
I’m starting to think they should annull the whole 2021 WDC. No way you can adjust the result of this race and award the championship to either driver. If you don’t count this race results Max would win on the count back rule. Not fair on Lewis as he would have won this race if Masi hadn’t made the rules up as he went. If you give Lewis the win Max loses out for no fault of his own. Annull the championship and no one loses to their competitor.


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Max doesnt lose anything if Lewis gets the win.
It was not Max's to win in the first place.

People are talking as if Redbull were anywhere near challenging for that race win before and during the legal safety car.
The last 1 lap should be invalid. F-1 has counted race classifications on less than race distance. We saw that at spa.
If they want to award half points for AbuDhabi they can do that as well. And Lewis would still be Champion. Max and redbull dont deserve anything they didnt earn on the track. They already got a gift from Spa.
For Sure!!