v12 or v10

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
echedey
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Re: v12 or v10

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the Ferrari 412 T2 v12 engine if I remember correctly was the last engine that Ferrari used, reaching only about 15000 rpm.
I would not know if with the new technologies and new methods of fabricasion copying the engines of yesteryear the v10 and v8 copying the technology and development of those engines could be achieved to develop the v12 and can increase its power by tiring large engine speeds I had the illusion and confidence that this engine can reach the 20,000 rpm that everyone says.

Jolle
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Re: v12 or v10

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echedey wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:23 pm
the Ferrari 412 T2 v12 engine if I remember correctly was the last engine that Ferrari used, reaching only about 15000 rpm.
I would not know if with the new technologies and new methods of fabricasion copying the engines of yesteryear the v10 and v8 copying the technology and development of those engines could be achieved to develop the v12 and can increase its power by tiring large engine speeds I had the illusion and confidence that this engine can reach the 20,000 rpm that everyone says.
Renault during those years only got about 13.000 rpm in those years. When the real big money and development war began, especially when Mercedes enterend the scene, rpm (and power) skyrocketed.

Jolle
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Re: v12 or v10

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The question, V10 or V12, depends a lot of all other variables. What and how much fuel? Capacity? Weight? Etc etc.
In F1, a V12 was never that successful. Only really Ferrari had succes with them for a couple of years competing against V8’s and after that only Senna brought home one championship in the last 40 years. Even Ferrari switched over before the V10 became mandatory.

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Zynerji
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Re: v12 or v10

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V10 best sound imho.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: v12 or v10

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:06 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:05 pm
A V10 and a V12 cylinder engine of the same cubic capacity, The V12 will always be able to be made to rev higher then the V10.
Would you quantify that please? One would think that more parts =more weight and friction. I'd love more info on it.
assuming dimensional similarity and the same piston acceleration
the V12 would have 94% of the V10's stroke and bore ....
so 3% more rpm and 3% less piston speed

so 3% more piston friction work and heat taken to coolant
plus a bit more crankshaft bearing friction
slightly lower gas speed ie 3% better breathing

3% better breathing at 3% more rpm - less a bit more friction ..... meaning ....
maybe 5% more power - but a worse package
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Zynerji
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Re: v12 or v10

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:03 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:06 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:05 pm
A V10 and a V12 cylinder engine of the same cubic capacity, The V12 will always be able to be made to rev higher then the V10.
Would you quantify that please? One would think that more parts =more weight and friction. I'd love more info on it.
assuming dimensional similarity and the same piston acceleration
the V12 would have 94% of the V10's stroke and bore ....
so 3% more rpm and 3% less piston speed

slightly more friction and heat taken to coolant
slightly lower gas speed ie better breathing
Thanks!

NL_Fer
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Re: v12 or v10

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V6 twin turbo hybrid

Jolle
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Re: v12 or v10

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In general, with NA engines, more cylinders with a set capacity means more rpm which translates in more power. But.. with less efficiency and more weight.

Hoffman900
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Re: v12 or v10

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Jolle wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:38 pm
In general, with NA engines, more cylinders with a set capacity means more rpm which translates in more power. But.. with less efficiency and more weight.
Efficiency is a tough one. Ducati explicitly stated, and I believe they have about as good of a grasp on port injected combustion engines as anyone, they are no longer going with bore sizes over 100mm for combustion efficiency reasons.

98mm was a big struggle for the teams to get good, repeatable combustion in an reciprocating engine at that rpm. I believe that is going to be the hardest part of thinking of any engine over 20k rpm.

Also keep in mind we haven’t seen the current 1.5L engines uncorked. Take away the fuel flown and rpm limit and see how things look.
Last edited by Hoffman900 on Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jolle
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Re: v12 or v10

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:49 pm
Jolle wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:38 pm
In general, with NA engines, more cylinders with a set capacity means more rpm which translates in more power. But.. with less efficiency and more weight.
Efficiency is a tough one. Ducati explicitly stated, and I believe they have about as good of a grasp on port injected combustion engines as anyone, they are no longer going with bore sizes over 100mm for combustion efficiency reasons.

98mm was a big struggle for the teams to get good, repeatable combustion in an reciprocating engine at that rpm. I believe that is going to be the hardest part of thinking of any engine over 20k engines.
That’s why I said “in general”. Ducati is using 600cc cylinders, which is, compared to any other high tech racing engine, extremely large. Their competition is using 250cc, F1 during the last V10 years 300cc. The Ford V8 from 1994 comes closes with 435cc and that only reached around 11.000 rpm.
Ducati is just really really against/over the limit of the “in general”

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Big Tea
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Re: v12 or v10

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Come on guys, these engines have been dead for a decade, let them rust in piece(s) :mrgreen:
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Hoffman900
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Re: v12 or v10

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The technology is light years ahead of 1994 and even ahead of 2010.

That said, Ducati is back down to 276cc/bore for their flagship performance engine.

Bore size is more important to combustion though. Stroke and rod length will determine piston speed, which the maximum is around the same for most engines. Peak piston speed on an IHRA “Mountain Motor” Pro Stock is pretty scary even with half the rpm’s.

I’m not sure how high these TJI systems can go. I’m sure they’ve seen 15,000rpm in testing, but not sure if they’ll go to 20k rpm +.

echedey
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Re: v12 or v10

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I have been doing some research and the engine that made it to 20000 rpm was the 2006 cosworth ca v8, I could copy their development and technology so I could design my v12.

Hoffman900
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Re: v12 or v10

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echedey wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:20 am
I have been doing some research and the engine that made it to 20000 rpm was the 2006 cosworth ca v8, I could copy their development and technology so I could design my v12.
The V8's were even more advanced, they just were capped rpm wise by rules. They're the ones you should copy.

saviour stivala
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Re: v12 or v10

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:48 pm
V10 best sound imho.
You seem to not have beeen around the F1 era of the BRM V16 - MATRA V12 and the FERRARI V12, I assure you that if you ever heared one of these three engine sounds running at full bore you would never ever forget such engine sounds.