2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Godius
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Max his overtaking move on the last lap reminded me of his overtake on Vettel during the '15 USGP. He also got caught unaware, not expecting a move into a corner followed by a long straight:

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Alexf1 wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:45 pm
dans79 wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:18 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:09 pm
I don't understand you wouldn't want to think of ideas in that direction.
Because imo, that line of thought is why Jules is longer with us. Back in the day drivers would push as hard as they could as often as they could. Then after years of doing that' they started pushing even when they shouldn't be, trying to gain every 0.001 seconds of advanage they could get.

If you give the teams or the drivers an opportunity to gain an advantage they will take it. The benefits are to high for them not to.
Not if you make the crash site a 80 km/h slow zone (car on speed limiter). Offence is instant DQ. Also I mentioned the unlapping can only start after the crane has left the track so indeed no Jules scenario.
This has Mugello pile-up written all over it!

Safety shouldn't be compromised for one extra lap.

We had actually 55 laps of racing in Abu dahbi 2020, and we had 54 laps in 2021. It would have been 53 laps if the rules were followed by Masi. Did the one lap make any difference to the quality of racing? Absolutely not. There were dangerous, unfair and confusing scrambles for positions down the field. Everyone was left confused with what happened outside of Max crossing the line under very strange circumstances.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Csmith1980 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:30 pm

So it’s ok for an official to directly manipulate the results of a championship providing it makes up for some bad luck/mistakes earlier in the season because it’s karma?
That's not what happened. The teams agreed that race control make an effort to end races with green flag conditions instead of the race ending under yellow flags. The incident was cleared and it was safe to get racing underway. Masi didn't break any rules or didn't give Max the win, he simply did what was normally done which was to remove back markers out of the way. There isn't a rule that states ALL back markers need to be let by. There is no rule that says once the back markers are set to not pass the safety car that they can't then be set to pass if race control changes there decision. They simply said lapped cars will not pass, YET!

I don't expect any of those who are upset to ever get over it, and I also know that everyone who is happy with the outcome will say it was fair and square mono y mono and that Max is the rightful champion, lucky yes, and deservedly so. He is no fake champion and the win wasn't given to him. I am soooo glad Hamilton wasn't given a win with him just strolling to the finish line under safety car. Now that would have been a farce to not give the championship contenders a fight to the finish. That would have been unfair to the fans too!

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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ispano6 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:51 am
That's not what happened. The teams agreed that race control make an effort to end races with green flag conditions instead of the race ending under yellow flags.
How much would you like to bet that the teams wouldn't expect the Race director to circumvent 2 rules.


Masi didn't break any rules or didn't give Max the win, he simply did what was normally done which was to remove back markers out of the way. There isn't a rule that states ALL back markers need to be let by. There is no rule that says once the back markers are set to not pass the safety car that they can't then be set to pass if race control changes there decision. They simply said lapped cars will not pass, YET!
[/quote]

from article 48.12 of the sporting regulations.
If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW
OVERTAKE" has been sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system, any cars that
have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety
car.
This did not happen, and the Red Bull claim of "Any does not mean all", would not hold up at all in a real court.
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hollus
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Please, lets not just repeat the same arguments that we already had in this very thread in December.
I would like to see a paleontologist.

Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:05 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:45 pm
dans79 wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:18 pm


Because imo, that line of thought is why Jules is longer with us. Back in the day drivers would push as hard as they could as often as they could. Then after years of doing that' they started pushing even when they shouldn't be, trying to gain every 0.001 seconds of advanage they could get.

If you give the teams or the drivers an opportunity to gain an advantage they will take it. The benefits are to high for them not to.
Not if you make the crash site a 80 km/h slow zone (car on speed limiter). Offence is instant DQ. Also I mentioned the unlapping can only start after the crane has left the track so indeed no Jules scenario.
This has Mugello pile-up written all over it!

Safety shouldn't be compromised for one extra lap.

We had actually 55 laps of racing in Abu dahbi 2020, and we had 54 laps in 2021. It would have been 53 laps if the rules were followed by Masi. Did the one lap make any difference to the quality of racing? Absolutely not. There were dangerous, unfair and confusing scrambles for positions down the field. Everyone was left confused with what happened outside of Max crossing the line under very strange circumstances.
Quite the contrary. In Mugello the cars had no way of knowing there would be heavy braking on the start finish straight when the race was about to restart. During a SC when lapped cars are allowed to unlap they know where the crash site is and are told from which corner till which corner the slow zone is. Everybody knows when they must brake and of course no erratic braking is allowed. Simple, with shorter SC periods as a result. But moving the lapped cars back in the pack and demand 1 extra lap of fuel in reserve is also fine by me. I rather watch a race than countless SC laps.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:44 pm
Everybody knows when they must brake and of course no erratic braking is allowed. Simple, with shorter SC periods as a result.
As has been already stated, it's not that simple, because the teams and drivers will find and take advantage of every loophole. As has been seen throughout the history of F1, the FIA is not good at writing rules and thus generates lots of loopholes as a side effect.
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Csmith1980
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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ispano6 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:51 am
Csmith1980 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:30 pm

So it’s ok for an official to directly manipulate the results of a championship providing it makes up for some bad luck/mistakes earlier in the season because it’s karma?
That's not what happened. The teams agreed that race control make an effort to end races with green flag conditions instead of the race ending under yellow flags. The incident was cleared and it was safe to get racing underway. Masi didn't break any rules or didn't give Max the win, he simply did what was normally done which was to remove back markers out of the way. There isn't a rule that states ALL back markers need to be let by. There is no rule that says once the back markers are set to not pass the safety car that they can't then be set to pass if race control changes there decision. They simply said lapped cars will not pass, YET!

I don't expect any of those who are upset to ever get over it, and I also know that everyone who is happy with the outcome will say it was fair and square mono y mono and that Max is the rightful champion, lucky yes, and deservedly so. He is no fake champion and the win wasn't given to him. I am soooo glad Hamilton wasn't given a win with him just strolling to the finish line under safety car. Now that would have been a farce to not give the championship contenders a fight to the finish. That would have been unfair to the fans too!
I’ve got to say your reply is impressive, just not for the reasons you might be thinking

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:24 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:44 pm
Everybody knows when they must brake and of course no erratic braking is allowed. Simple, with shorter SC periods as a result.
As has been already stated, it's not that simple, because the teams and drivers will find and take advantage of every loophole. As has been seen throughout the history of F1, the FIA is not good at writing rules and thus generates lots of loopholes as a side effect.
That's a way too dark and unrealistic way to look at anything the teams and FIA do. With this approach you wouldn't even have F1 in the first place. It's not unrealistic, as long as there is an appropriate penalty for not obeying important safety rules, for instance a black flag.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:24 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:44 pm
Everybody knows when they must brake and of course no erratic braking is allowed. Simple, with shorter SC periods as a result.
As has been already stated, it's not that simple, because the teams and drivers will find and take advantage of every loophole. As has been seen throughout the history of F1, the FIA is not good at writing rules and thus generates lots of loopholes as a side effect.
I would say the exact opposite, and say they are Very good at writing rules. :mrgreen: it's what they want
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Godius wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:13 am
Max his overtaking move on the last lap reminded me of his overtake on Vettel during the '15 USGP. He also got caught unaware, not expecting a move into a corner followed by a long straight:
This one even made more sense as Verstappen has DRS and vettel doesn't. Move was basically done at the end of straight but he overcooked it on brakes a bit.

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Stu
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Csmith1980 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:30 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:32 pm
Even Sir Jackie Stewart says the end was not Hollywood and was pure motor racing.

The elements that contributed to align for Verstappen were:
1. Perez holding up Lewis so that Max's delta was always within a pit window.
2. Pitting under Giovinazzi VSC for fresh tires to stay within the pit window afterwards
3. Battle with Mick that left Latifi with possibly dirty tires
4. Latifi losing the rear and crashing at a part of the track with no runoff.
5. Mercedes and Lewis track position fears
6. Marshals clearing the track in the time that they did
7. Masi and stewards deeming it safe to let some cars by before calling in the safety car the same lap to allow one final lap of racing since the course was cleared. This being the controversial part since not ALL back markers unlapped thus safety car was not to be called in the following lap which would have ended the race under SC.
8. Max taking the inside corner of turn 5
9. Max protecting the inside of turns 6 and 9.

It would be interesting to see the agreement by the teams and officials to make an effort to end races with green flag conditions. Is that an article in the regulations or a gentleman's agreement? If it was discussed before then should it come as a surprise that it would influence how the safety car period was handled? I'm sure the complaint is that only the cars between Lewis and Max were allowed past but would the situation been any different if all cars were let through between turns 5 and 6? Then would the complaint be that the safety car was called in that lap?

At the end of the day if Lewis lost there would still be complaints that the race didn't end under yellow. And if Max lost there would always be complaints Lewis, Bottas and Pirelli took Max out for a total of 18+16+26 pts. Without those Max and RedBull would have won both championships. And I don't buy the "Max had points from Spa he shouldn't have had". Max earned 12.5 compared to Lewis' 7.5. Had their been a proper race Max would have netted 2pts over Hamilton in 2nd. That result played in Hamilton's favor... Then of course the flex wing threats and pitstop equipment complaints to add to that. Mercedes made many efforts to slow RedBull down which led to changes in regulations, procedures etc. According to Peter Windsor Mercedes benefitted from the modified C3 compound too.

Honestly speaking I consider it all Karma.
So it’s ok for an official to directly manipulate the results of a championship providing it makes up for some bad luck/mistakes earlier in the season because it’s karma?
It was in Japan 1989 & 1990 (FISA president overruled stewards decision) and the year (2007) that Max Mosley disqualified & fined (£100m) McLaren - he later admitted that was for “Ron being a twat”
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:16 pm
It was in Japan 1989 & 1990 (FISA president overruled stewards decision) and the year (2007) that Max Mosley disqualified & fined (£100m) McLaren - he later admitted that was for “Ron being a twat”
That's not exactly apples to apple's, because at least those "officials" had the authority to do so if memory serves.
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Csmith1980
Csmith1980
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:16 pm
Csmith1980 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:30 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:32 pm
Even Sir Jackie Stewart says the end was not Hollywood and was pure motor racing.

The elements that contributed to align for Verstappen were:
1. Perez holding up Lewis so that Max's delta was always within a pit window.
2. Pitting under Giovinazzi VSC for fresh tires to stay within the pit window afterwards
3. Battle with Mick that left Latifi with possibly dirty tires
4. Latifi losing the rear and crashing at a part of the track with no runoff.
5. Mercedes and Lewis track position fears
6. Marshals clearing the track in the time that they did
7. Masi and stewards deeming it safe to let some cars by before calling in the safety car the same lap to allow one final lap of racing since the course was cleared. This being the controversial part since not ALL back markers unlapped thus safety car was not to be called in the following lap which would have ended the race under SC.
8. Max taking the inside corner of turn 5
9. Max protecting the inside of turns 6 and 9.

It would be interesting to see the agreement by the teams and officials to make an effort to end races with green flag conditions. Is that an article in the regulations or a gentleman's agreement? If it was discussed before then should it come as a surprise that it would influence how the safety car period was handled? I'm sure the complaint is that only the cars between Lewis and Max were allowed past but would the situation been any different if all cars were let through between turns 5 and 6? Then would the complaint be that the safety car was called in that lap?

At the end of the day if Lewis lost there would still be complaints that the race didn't end under yellow. And if Max lost there would always be complaints Lewis, Bottas and Pirelli took Max out for a total of 18+16+26 pts. Without those Max and RedBull would have won both championships. And I don't buy the "Max had points from Spa he shouldn't have had". Max earned 12.5 compared to Lewis' 7.5. Had their been a proper race Max would have netted 2pts over Hamilton in 2nd. That result played in Hamilton's favor... Then of course the flex wing threats and pitstop equipment complaints to add to that. Mercedes made many efforts to slow RedBull down which led to changes in regulations, procedures etc. According to Peter Windsor Mercedes benefitted from the modified C3 compound too.

Honestly speaking I consider it all Karma.
So it’s ok for an official to directly manipulate the results of a championship providing it makes up for some bad luck/mistakes earlier in the season because it’s karma?
It was in Japan 1989 & 1990 (FISA president overruled stewards decision) and the year (2007) that Max Mosley disqualified & fined (£100m) McLaren - he later admitted that was for “Ron being a twat”
And what’s your point?

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Stu
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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That historically it HAS been okay for an official to directly manipulate the results of a championship. It has happened on several previous occasions.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….