2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[basti313]

Red Bull tried to do F1 on the cheap and got bitten on the bum by it. Mercedes invested massively in building the entire package and reaped the rewards from that. That's life.

In the past you could outspend your opponents, but you had to invest and invest every year. Technologies that were smart were allowed for some time and then got banned to level the field again.

With the engines you had to outsmart and outspend your opponents once and then got it cemented by the token system for three years. And the three year experience could never be overcome with a new engine, so it cemented itself. It is not a coincidence that Honda who was out of the tokens at the beginning is the only engine really challenging Merc...
In my point of view cementing the engine advantage is something completely out of the usual F1 habits. I do not find any other example where supreme technologies were not banned by the rules after maybe 2 years but could live their advantage for 10 years.

So I think it is wrong to make something small or normal out of this. The lasting engine difference is some remarkable change in F1 politics.

At the beginning of the hybid era, there was indeed a token system. But this was dropped after 1 ½ years to give Renault and Ferrari the opportunity to catch up. The funny part was that Renault never used it’s amount of tokens they could spend. Both Renault and Ferrari had lots of opportunity to change the layout of their engine, like Honda did, but choose not to and keep most of their layout the same over the whole period.

Difficult to answer...this is simply wrong. The token system was dropped for the 2017 season. So between 2014 and 2016 we had three years where the engine layout could not be changed for the split turbo as the tokens were not enough for this.
Why did no one change to this solution in 2017 is also easy to answer. Honda messed up completely and had the by far worst engine on the grid, so the split turbo was a bit in question in 2017. Then Ferrari made up the deficit with tricks...only now, since 2020 one can clearly see that the split turbo is the thing to have and with closing the loop holes on fuel and oil tricks the better efficiency is obvious.
I am convinced that Renault, maybe even Ferrari (AVL!) turns up with a split turbo in four weeks.

Especially Renault has been lagging behind behind the rest but this is not Mercedes fault and this doesn’t entitle RedBull just to get the Mercedes engine. Luckily Honda and McLaren didn’t work out, else RedBull would have been fighting for third in the championship behind McLaren and Mercedes, with Ferrari.

Difficult to speak about Renault, they simply had no money in the past. This is toxic, so I do not know how to use Renault as any example.
I also do not see a Merc fault, Merc was brilliant. It is the error of Ferrari and the rule makers. Merc just said "thank you".
McLaren even stated that they never had exclusivity with Honda. And also the talks between RB and Honda started way before the split. I am quite sure that we would have seen the Honda in the RB and TR with or without McLaren having it. Just for the reason that Marco very well knew he needs the split turbo and nothing else. The Austrian connection of Indra (AVL), Marco and Lauda knew exactly that this is the only way to win.

[Jolle]

In the past you could outspend your opponents, but you had to invest and invest every year. Technologies that were smart were allowed for some time and then got banned to level the field again.

With the engines you had to outsmart and outspend your opponents once and then got it cemented by the token system for three years. And the three year experience could never be overcome with a new engine, so it cemented itself. It is not a coincidence that Honda who was out of the tokens at the beginning is the only engine really challenging Merc...
In my point of view cementing the engine advantage is something completely out of the usual F1 habits. I do not find any other example where supreme technologies were not banned by the rules after maybe 2 years but could live their advantage for 10 years.

So I think it is wrong to make something small or normal out of this. The lasting engine difference is some remarkable change in F1 politics.

At the beginning of the hybid era, there was indeed a token system. But this was dropped after 1 ½ years to give Renault and Ferrari the opportunity to catch up. The funny part was that Renault never used it’s amount of tokens they could spend. Both Renault and Ferrari had lots of opportunity to change the layout of their engine, like Honda did, but choose not to and keep most of their layout the same over the whole period.

Difficult to answer...this is simply wrong. The token system was dropped for the 2017 season. So between 2014 and 2016 we had three years where the engine layout could not be changed for the split turbo as the tokens were not enough for this.
Why did no one change to this solution in 2017 is also easy to answer. Honda messed up completely and had the by far worst engine on the grid, so the split turbo was a bit in question in 2017. Then Ferrari made up the deficit with tricks...only now, since 2020 one can clearly see that the split turbo is the thing to have and with closing the loop holes on fuel and oil tricks the better efficiency is obvious.
I am convinced that Renault, maybe even Ferrari (AVL!) turns up with a split turbo in four weeks.

Especially Renault has been lagging behind behind the rest but this is not Mercedes fault and this doesn’t entitle RedBull just to get the Mercedes engine. Luckily Honda and McLaren didn’t work out, else RedBull would have been fighting for third in the championship behind McLaren and Mercedes, with Ferrari.

Difficult to speak about Renault, they simply had no money in the past. This is toxic, so I do not know how to use Renault as any example.
I also do not see a Merc fault, Merc was brilliant. It is the error of Ferrari and the rule makers. Merc just said "thank you".
McLaren even stated that they never had exclusivity with Honda. And also the talks between RB and Honda started way before the split. I am quite sure that we would have seen the Honda in the RB and TR with or without McLaren having it. Just for the reason that Marco very well knew he needs the split turbo and nothing else. The Austrian connection of Indra (AVL), Marco and Lauda knew exactly that this is the only way to win.

My bad about the timing of the tokens. But Ron Dennis was extremely protective of the Honda deal, and although RedBull and Honda might have spoken about a deal, the deal itself was made very last minute. So much that Sauber thought it had a deal and somehow had to return to Ferrari.

[ispano6]

My bad about the timing of the tokens. But Ron Dennis was extremely protective of the Honda deal, and although RedBull and Honda might have spoken about a deal, the deal itself was made very last minute. So much that Sauber thought it had a deal and somehow had to return to Ferrari.

Monisha Kaltenborn wanted a partnership with Honda but once she was let go Vasseur canceled that due to uncertainty with McLaren. It was only after the Sauber-Honda talks were called off that Red Bull went with Honda for Toro Rosso. Honda, toward the end of 2017 didn't have a team to supply for 2018, but Toro Rosso was brave to be the guinea pig for Red Bull and the 4th place in Bahrain in 2018 showed Red Bull that Honda were starting to come good. That is why Tost gets a lot of props from Honda, rightly so. Berger, Marko, and Jos Verstappen also had a part too in the Red Bull Honda tie-up.

[Sasha]

A little birdie told me the split turbo came from Austria. MB with there diesel engine and Marine heat recovery systems know how was smiling to the bank for space.

[Sasha]

That was a major con job for MB even hiring Pure engines founder to push it to other manufacturers that it was easy tech... MGU-H. He closed shop very fast after his propaganda was done. Go look at Jet fighter deals( Eurofighter,F-35 and Rafael) and how dirty the money flows. MB came up with the PU formula and spent money to make sure it happened and spent money that the MGU-H isn't outlaw for cost reason. They got there PU for 10+ years.
Amazing politics and backdoor deals.

[Sasha]

Sorry back to topic

[basti313]

My bad about the timing of the tokens. But Ron Dennis was extremely protective of the Honda deal, and although RedBull and Honda might have spoken about a deal, the deal itself was made very last minute. So much that Sauber thought it had a deal and somehow had to return to Ferrari.

Monisha Kaltenborn wanted a partnership with Honda but once she was let go Vasseur canceled that due to uncertainty with McLaren. It was only after the Sauber-Honda talks were called off that Red Bull went with Honda for Toro Rosso. Honda, toward the end of 2017 didn't have a team to supply for 2018, but Toro Rosso was brave to be the guinea pig for Red Bull and the 4th place in Bahrain in 2018 showed Red Bull that Honda were starting to come good. That is why Tost gets a lot of props from Honda, rightly so. Berger, Marko, and Jos Verstappen also had a part too in the Red Bull Honda tie-up.

I am a bit surprised why this open data is so wrong now in this thread.

It is openly known:
- RB was desperately looking for another engine, first thing was the last minute Ferrari attempt of Torro.
- Honda needed a second team. One team is not enough for data. So they started to talk to Torro and Sauber beginning of 2017.
- Sauber was prime choice with Kaltenborn as she offered the Sauber factory (wind tunnel?) for other Honda projects. Something RB did not do.
- On the other hand Marco already clearly said they want Honda also for RB if the performance increases...beginning 2017!
- With Kaltenborn leaving the factory deal was forgotten, so Honda and Sauber closed the discussions.
- Torro saved the deal already in summer 2017, right when McLaren started to claim they leave. That all happend nearly simultaneously between the summer break and the Singapore GP.

[Wouter]

Max and Sergio are in Milton Keynes.

[hasika]

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/466a2 ... 1938e235ce

Asaki san's interview.
Asaki san continues to be the center director of HRD Sakura after Honda has completed F1 activities, but he said that he was not LPL (Large Project Leader) of the F1 project anymore and the role has been left to his successor.
"I'm still the senter director of HRD Sakura,I was also the LPL of F1 project until last year, but from January 1th, LPL of the F1 project has been other man."
"So i think i will not be directly involved in development anymore. So i can't see the development of our F1 Power Unit, maybe i will do something about this(laughs). But to prevent that from happening, i believe the young engineers will make solid job and build good PU. ”
He also confirmed that the 2022 PU for Red Bull Powertrains was almost completed.
"The development is always about small details and correcting the problems, but most work was already done in last year, or you won't be in time for new season."
When asked about what is the difference between the 2022 power unit and the 2021 "RA621H"? He said that a lot of work was improve and optimize the PU for E10 fuel.
"We mainly focus on E10 fuel.We already introduced new"skeleton"engine in last year,so(no need to make big change to the PU concept this year)the key of development this year was how to maximum performance with E10 fuel. "
"When it comes to E10 fuel, the power and calories that it has with the same weight are reduced. That is the natural characteristic of alcohol fuel. But on the other hand, with E10 fuel its easier to control the abnormal combustion which we called knocking."
"We are aiming for maximum efficiency, but with E10 fuel, both the power of the engine and the amount of power generation will also decrease, so we have to verified the balance."
When asked about how much does the E10 fuel affect the power? Asaki san said it was a "secret".
"Its a secret. It seems that other manufacturers said they reached the same level as last year, I think when they made such announcements,it must means it's difficult to output same power as last year."

[Wouter]

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/466a2 ... 1938e235ce

Asaki san's interview.
Asaki san continues to be the center director of HRD Sakura after Honda has completed F1 activities, but he said that he was not LPL (Large Project Leader) of the F1 project anymore and the role has been left to his successor.
[ ................ ]

Thank you again for translating this for us @Hasika!

[SmallSoldier]

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/466a2 ... 1938e235ce

Asaki san's interview.
Asaki san continues to be the center director of HRD Sakura after Honda has completed F1 activities, but he said that he was not LPL (Large Project Leader) of the F1 project anymore and the role has been left to his successor.
"I'm still the senter director of HRD Sakura,I was also the LPL of F1 project until last year, but from January 1th, LPL of the F1 project has been other man."
"So i think i will not be directly involved in development anymore. So i can't see the development of our F1 Power Unit, maybe i will do something about this(laughs). But to prevent that from happening, i believe the young engineers will make solid job and build good PU. ”
He also confirmed that the 2022 PU for Red Bull Powertrains was almost completed.
"The development is always about small details and correcting the problems, but most work was already done in last year, or you won't be in time for new season."
When asked about what is the difference between the 2022 power unit and the 2021 "RA621H"? He said that a lot of work was improve and optimize the PU for E10 fuel.
"We mainly focus on E10 fuel.We already introduced new"skeleton"engine in last year,so(no need to make big change to the PU concept this year)the key of development this year was how to maximum performance with E10 fuel. "
"When it comes to E10 fuel, the power and calories that it has with the same weight are reduced. That is the natural characteristic of alcohol fuel. But on the other hand, with E10 fuel its easier to control the abnormal combustion which we called knocking."
"We are aiming for maximum efficiency, but with E10 fuel, both the power of the engine and the amount of power generation will also decrease, so we have to verified the balance."
When asked about how much does the E10 fuel affect the power? Asaki san said it was a "secret".
"Its a secret. It seems that other manufacturers said they reached the same level as last year, I think when they made such announcements,it must means it's difficult to output same power as last year."

Thanks for the translation and for sharing!

Interesting takes on Honda’s focus for the 2022 PU… Either he is hiding his hand or Honda hasn’t recover the full impact of E10 fuel… It will be interesting to see if they will be on par with the other manufacturers.

[Juzh]

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/466a2 ... 1938e235ce

Asaki san's interview.
Asaki san continues to be the center director of HRD Sakura after Honda has completed F1 activities, but he said that he was not LPL (Large Project Leader) of the F1 project anymore and the role has been left to his successor.
"I'm still the senter director of HRD Sakura,I was also the LPL of F1 project until last year, but from January 1th, LPL of the F1 project has been other man."
"So i think i will not be directly involved in development anymore. So i can't see the development of our F1 Power Unit, maybe i will do something about this(laughs). But to prevent that from happening, i believe the young engineers will make solid job and build good PU. ”
He also confirmed that the 2022 PU for Red Bull Powertrains was almost completed.
"The development is always about small details and correcting the problems, but most work was already done in last year, or you won't be in time for new season."
When asked about what is the difference between the 2022 power unit and the 2021 "RA621H"? He said that a lot of work was improve and optimize the PU for E10 fuel.
"We mainly focus on E10 fuel.We already introduced new"skeleton"engine in last year,so(no need to make big change to the PU concept this year)the key of development this year was how to maximum performance with E10 fuel. "
"When it comes to E10 fuel, the power and calories that it has with the same weight are reduced. That is the natural characteristic of alcohol fuel. But on the other hand, with E10 fuel its easier to control the abnormal combustion which we called knocking."
"We are aiming for maximum efficiency, but with E10 fuel, both the power of the engine and the amount of power generation will also decrease, so we have to verified the balance."
When asked about how much does the E10 fuel affect the power? Asaki san said it was a "secret".
"Its a secret. It seems that other manufacturers said they reached the same level as last year, I think when they made such announcements,it must means it's difficult to output same power as last year."

thanks

[AeroDynamic]

It does sound like, as was thought before, that optimising the engine to extract the performance lost from the new E10 spec of oil has been where much ‘development’ time has been lost to, as opposed to extracting more performance from the engine concept and technology that already exist. In effect, the ‘21 engine covers most of the R&D they already had in mind for the ‘22 freeze.

It makes me wonder if this bodes well for the engine competitiveness. They pitted a ‘22 engine against their nearest rival last year. But with all opposition teams having an extra year of development, they might converge very close or end up ahead.

Given the reports that Honda have not recovered the performance lost from the new E10 fuel, but reports that other teams have, you have to consider how much more time teams have gained developing their engine for performance outside of recovering what was lost with the new fuel.

[etusch]

If Ferrari and Renault rereach their 2021 power level with new fuel but Honda can not Honda still can be ahead of them or same level. But even in this condition it is bad for honda and for Redbull. And what mercedes will bring is more important.

[basti313]

If Ferrari and Renault rereach their 2021 power level with new fuel but Honda can not Honda still can be ahead of them or same level. But even in this condition it is bad for honda and for Redbull. And what mercedes will bring is more important.

That is the point.
As mentioned, there is no obvious reason why Merc and RB should not be good on the chassis again. Miracles and whishes I would put into the pecking order thread...
Taking the easy logic that next season will mostly be like last season (the usual development in F1) RB is better on chassis side than Ferrari or Alpine, so it does not make sense to look at them if the question is if their engine is on par or lower.

The only comparison that counts is Merc....and they just have to stabilize the output they squeezed from the engine last season to be way ahead.

This brings me unfortunately to the point where I have to compare McLaren to RedBull...can the better chassis make up the engine deficit they will have if everything runs to normal logic?