Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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Zynerji
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Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:50
Blackout wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:31
https://i.imgur.com/HlNHPx7.jpg
SiLo wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:30
What are the restrictions on the radius they can have on the sidepods? It might be that they are meeting some requirement and have just smoothed everything out which makes it look bulky.
No it's just a deliberate technical choice from Haas
From that view, it makes me wonder if the idea is to use the front of the sidepod to deflect air laterally and then the shape of the rear end encourages air flow down from above the car on to the rear floor. If you can't use big bargeboards to move air laterally, using the outermost strake and the sidepod front face to do it seems like the next best idea.
Wouldn't you want slow/stagnant air above the tunnels (top of floor) to create a pressure difference on both sides to create downforce? Or is that compromised to get fast air over the top of the diffuser exit to aide extraction?

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jjn9128
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Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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Zynerji wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:50
jjn9128 wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:48
Zynerji wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:45
Didn't Sauber come up with a super compact sidepod for 2013 after Perez's crash at Monaco 2012?

I can't wait to see what Alfa Romeo brings after seeing this whale...
Side impact structures are spec. The monocoque is also wider now - an 80mm lip from the cockpit opening template rather than 60mm. Plus there's some spec shape for the fuel cell which may have pushed the rads outboard.
So, you are saying its reasonable to think all cars may present with huge sidepods and tiny openings?
I think there's a high likelihood they'll all be bulkier at the sidepods.
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olahOPO23
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Joined: 17 Oct 2021, 19:20

Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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If this kind of (ugly) bulky sidepods is one of the way to mount the cooling for the new regs, i start believe in El Plan, and see what Alpine did with that bulky roll hoop..... :wink:

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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Zynerji wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:53
Just_a_fan wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:50
Blackout wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:31
https://i.imgur.com/HlNHPx7.jpg



No it's just a deliberate technical choice from Haas
From that view, it makes me wonder if the idea is to use the front of the sidepod to deflect air laterally and then the shape of the rear end encourages air flow down from above the car on to the rear floor. If you can't use big bargeboards to move air laterally, using the outermost strake and the sidepod front face to do it seems like the next best idea.
Wouldn't you want slow/stagnant air above the tunnels (top of floor) to create a pressure difference on both sides to create downforce? Or is that compromised to get fast air over the top of the diffuser exit to aide extraction?
They want fast air over the exit of the diffuser because this makes it more efficient - the diffuser's job is to slow the air down so if you can blow fast air across the edge of the diffuser, the speed difference it has to deal with is less. The beam wing helps here too because it accelerates the air immediately below it (and thus immediately above the diffuser lip) improving the situation further. The beam wing also helps with the expansion, of course, and results in an effectively extended upper diffuser surface. That's my "school boy understanding" of it, anyway.
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Blackout
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Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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olahOPO23 wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 17:11
If this kind of (ugly) bulky sidepods is one of the way to mount the cooling for the new regs, i start believe in El Plan, and see what Alpine did with that bulky roll hoop..... :wink:
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DChemTech
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Joined: 25 Mar 2019, 11:31
Location: Delft, NL

Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:54
Zynerji wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:50
jjn9128 wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:48


Side impact structures are spec. The monocoque is also wider now - an 80mm lip from the cockpit opening template rather than 60mm. Plus there's some spec shape for the fuel cell which may have pushed the rads outboard.
So, you are saying its reasonable to think all cars may present with huge sidepods and tiny openings?
I think there's a high likelihood they'll all be bulkier at the sidepods.
Still this seems quite a bit more extreme than the FIA model car, where some more floor area was visible next to the widest segment of the sidepod in the top view.

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Blackout
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Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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Yes the 2022 cars should be a bit bulkier in that area compared to 2021, but this is extra bulky, due to Haas's own choices IMO.

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godlameroso
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Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 17:19
Zynerji wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:53
Just_a_fan wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:50

From that view, it makes me wonder if the idea is to use the front of the sidepod to deflect air laterally and then the shape of the rear end encourages air flow down from above the car on to the rear floor. If you can't use big bargeboards to move air laterally, using the outermost strake and the sidepod front face to do it seems like the next best idea.
Wouldn't you want slow/stagnant air above the tunnels (top of floor) to create a pressure difference on both sides to create downforce? Or is that compromised to get fast air over the top of the diffuser exit to aide extraction?
They want fast air over the exit of the diffuser because this makes it more efficient - the diffuser's job is to slow the air down so if you can blow fast air across the edge of the diffuser, the speed difference it has to deal with is less. The beam wing helps here too because it accelerates the air immediately below it (and thus immediately above the diffuser lip) improving the situation further. The beam wing also helps with the expansion, of course, and results in an effectively extended upper diffuser surface. That's my "school boy understanding" of it, anyway.
The air that can't go through the tunnels and goes over the floor and under the sidepod undercut, will be much higher pressure than the diffuser in general(especially if we have a choked diffuser throat). The edge wing is there to prevent or delay the air over the floor from curling under the floor. It still will curl under the floor of course because high pressure goes to low, this will create two strong counter clockwise vortices. As we discussed in the aero thread, vortices can amplify each other if they interact properly.

The airflow that is accelerated by the throat of the diffuser's massive low pressure, and the expansion fans that follow the throat, all the way to the beam wing, help drive the two vortices, and those vortices will help pull air through the floor further accelerating it. This in turn will create a bigger pressure difference between the top and bottom of the car, in a positive feedback loop similar to the way a turbo creates pressure.

With subsonic flows, or incompressible flows, diffusion slows down air, with sonic or compressible flows, diffusion accelerates air. For a diffuser to accelerate air via expansion that air already is either sonic or suffering from compression effects. Have you ever wondered why we use diffusers and not nozzles at the back of the car?
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Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 18:18
Just_a_fan wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 17:19
Zynerji wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 16:53


Wouldn't you want slow/stagnant air above the tunnels (top of floor) to create a pressure difference on both sides to create downforce? Or is that compromised to get fast air over the top of the diffuser exit to aide extraction?
They want fast air over the exit of the diffuser because this makes it more efficient - the diffuser's job is to slow the air down so if you can blow fast air across the edge of the diffuser, the speed difference it has to deal with is less. The beam wing helps here too because it accelerates the air immediately below it (and thus immediately above the diffuser lip) improving the situation further. The beam wing also helps with the expansion, of course, and results in an effectively extended upper diffuser surface. That's my "school boy understanding" of it, anyway.
The air that can't go through the tunnels and goes over the floor and under the sidepod undercut, will be much higher pressure than the diffuser in general(especially if we have a choked diffuser throat). The edge wing is there to prevent or delay the air over the floor from curling under the floor. It still will curl under the floor of course because high pressure goes to low, this will create two strong counter clockwise vortices. As we discussed in the aero thread, vortices can amplify each other if they interact properly.

The airflow that is accelerated by the throat of the diffuser's massive low pressure, and the expansion fans that follow the throat, all the way to the beam wing, help drive the two vortices, and those vortices will help pull air through the floor further accelerating it. This in turn will create a bigger pressure difference between the top and bottom of the car, in a positive feedback loop similar to the way a turbo creates pressure.

With subsonic flows, or incompressible flows, diffusion slows down air, with sonic or compressible flows, diffusion accelerates air. For a diffuser to accelerate air via expansion that air already is either sonic or suffering from compression effects.
The diffuser slows the air down to meet the ambient air as smoothly as possible - that's the purpose of a diffuser on a racing car. By ensuring fast air flows over the top of the diffuser, the speed of both streams is as close as possible. This ensures that the flow behaves itself when they merge. That's why the teams design the cars with massive amounts of clear space in front of the rear floor - to ensure as good an airflow over the diffuser as possible. To prevent the very thing you say will happen - air curling under the diffuser rear lip.

The air under a Formula 1 car is not in supersonic flow.

Yes, you'll get vortices forming where air is moving laterally across the floor and meets the edge where the diffuser wall meets the floor. Those vortices will help to reduce separation in the diffuser and also mix in "unused" air from below the car which helps the diffuser too. https://www.racetechmag.com/2017/08/wil ... diffusers/
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 18:45
godlameroso wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 18:18
Just_a_fan wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 17:19

They want fast air over the exit of the diffuser because this makes it more efficient - the diffuser's job is to slow the air down so if you can blow fast air across the edge of the diffuser, the speed difference it has to deal with is less. The beam wing helps here too because it accelerates the air immediately below it (and thus immediately above the diffuser lip) improving the situation further. The beam wing also helps with the expansion, of course, and results in an effectively extended upper diffuser surface. That's my "school boy understanding" of it, anyway.
The air that can't go through the tunnels and goes over the floor and under the sidepod undercut, will be much higher pressure than the diffuser in general(especially if we have a choked diffuser throat). The edge wing is there to prevent or delay the air over the floor from curling under the floor. It still will curl under the floor of course because high pressure goes to low, this will create two strong counter clockwise vortices. As we discussed in the aero thread, vortices can amplify each other if they interact properly.

The airflow that is accelerated by the throat of the diffuser's massive low pressure, and the expansion fans that follow the throat, all the way to the beam wing, help drive the two vortices, and those vortices will help pull air through the floor further accelerating it. This in turn will create a bigger pressure difference between the top and bottom of the car, in a positive feedback loop similar to the way a turbo creates pressure.

With subsonic flows, or incompressible flows, diffusion slows down air, with sonic or compressible flows, diffusion accelerates air. For a diffuser to accelerate air via expansion that air already is either sonic or suffering from compression effects.
The diffuser slows the air down to meet the ambient air as smoothly as possible - that's the purpose of a diffuser on a racing car. By ensuring fast air flows over the top of the diffuser, the speed of both streams is as close as possible. This ensures that the flow behaves itself when they merge. That's why the teams design the cars with massive amounts of clear space in front of the rear floor - to ensure as good an airflow over the diffuser as possible. To prevent the very thing you say will happen - air curling under the diffuser rear lip.

The air under a Formula 1 car is not in supersonic flow.

Yes, you'll get vortices forming where air is moving laterally across the floor and meets the edge where the diffuser wall meets the floor. Those vortices will help to reduce separation in the diffuser and also mix in "unused" air from below the car which helps the diffuser too. https://www.racetechmag.com/2017/08/wil ... diffusers/
But it is influenced by compressibility, which is the same thing. If the pressure at the inlet of the venturi is twice the throat pressure, you have sonic flow. Again with sonic/compressible flow diffusers accelerate air, nozzles slow it down.

I believe the reason airflow is accelerated in the diffuser is partly to do with Prandtl Meyer expansion waves/fans.

Start @ 9:10 mark.
Last edited by godlameroso on 04 Feb 2022, 19:11, edited 1 time in total.
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michl420
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Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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For me it is impossible that this sidepod size is there for cooling only (too big). It is either a show car joke or they want creat outwash (but I don't know if it works or even is desirable).

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Blackout
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Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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It looks like they raised the rear track rod (blue) and aligned it with the top wishbone trailing arm, instead of putting it behind the shrouded transmission arm.
Image

I kinda expected some teams to raise the track rod in 2022 and have more clearance between it and the diffuser roof :P
Image

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Scorpaguy
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Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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Sidepods....seems Haas confused their F1 and NASCAR aero guys. Reminds me of back when the NASCAR guys would purposely "harsh" their front fenders on superspeedways so their pit crew guys could pull it back out (beyond spec)...supposedly to protect against tire rubs, but it proved significant in improving air flow.

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west52keep64
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Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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It's the sidepod legality box that's caused this odd design at the front of the sidepod. They've pushed the radiators as far forward as possible, probably to give them room for the floor tunnels underneath. That means they had to package the radiators and form the sidepod openings at the very front end of the sidepod legality volume. That volume tapers towards the cockpit, probably to try and encourage the sweeping sidepods we saw on the show car. You can see it clearly in this image, look at the orange volume and then look at the Haas sidepods.

Image

I can imagine FOM probably aren't too impressed with this, it's a far cry from the stylized aesthetic they were going for!

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west52keep64
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Re: Haas VF-22 Speculation Thread

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This is by no means perfect, but I think this shows how they ended up with this strange side pod inlet:

Image

You can see the bodywork for the inlet is within the orange triangle, this is the RV-RBW-SPOD volume.

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