2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Re: 2022 F1 cars porpoising on straight (aka "wobbling", "bumping")

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I personally think a TMD and a hydraulic heave “spring” would go a long way.

The ride height is a compromise, as is a stiffer car, but this is a compromise in the same way that NASCAR teams ran the COT on the bump stops. It works, but no one is happy about it.
Last edited by Hoffman900 on Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2022 F1 cars porpoising on straight (aka "wobbling", "bumping")

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Re-design the t-tray.
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jjn9128
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Re: 2022 F1 cars porpoising on straight (aka "wobbling", "bumping")

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:02 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:53 pm
I think they should bring back the hydraulic heave spring to start.

It looks like a low rider :lol:

But in all seriousness, that is untenable for the driver for 2 hours.
The simplest way to prevent the oscillations is to raise the ride height slightly. :wink:
And give up downforce?! That's the issue, you raise the RH to get rid of this behaviour, 3 teams don't and you lose.

In all seriousness would a TMD or inerter have prevent this?! F1 can make itself look really stupid sometimes.
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Zynerji
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Re: 2022 F1 cars porpoising on straight (aka "wobbling", "bumping")

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jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:05 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:02 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:53 pm
I think they should bring back the hydraulic heave spring to start.

It looks like a low rider :lol:

But in all seriousness, that is untenable for the driver for 2 hours.
The simplest way to prevent the oscillations is to raise the ride height slightly. :wink:
And give up downforce?! That's the issue, you raise the RH to get rid of this behaviour, 3 teams don't and you lose.

In all seriousness would a TMD or inerter have prevent this?! F1 can make itself look really stupid sometimes.

Incoming rules update to make sure the field is "safe" from this behavior.

Welcome back inerter!🤣

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Zynerji
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Re: 2022 F1 cars porpoising on straight (aka "wobbling", "bumping")

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godlameroso wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:59 pm
Rebound would limit extension heave. If it's an aero phenomena, I'd look at the plank area, I imagine the stalling that happens there, propagates to the rest of the floor. The strake placement affects the plank area pressure distribution as well. Maybe they should look to boat bows, and how they deal with bow shocks.
I remember starting at zero, and lap, add a single click, lap again. I honestly don't remember how high it actually was. It could have been half- range and not overly dramatic. It just tuned out the dips.
Last edited by Zynerji on Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hoffman900
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Re: 2022 F1 cars porpoising on straight (aka "wobbling", "bumping")

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jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:05 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:02 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:53 pm
I think they should bring back the hydraulic heave spring to start.

It looks like a low rider :lol:

But in all seriousness, that is untenable for the driver for 2 hours.
The simplest way to prevent the oscillations is to raise the ride height slightly. :wink:
And give up downforce?! That's the issue, you raise the RH to get rid of this behaviour, 3 teams don't and you lose.

In all seriousness would a TMD or inerter have prevent this?! F1 can make itself look really stupid sometimes.
Not all of it, but it would likely mitigate some of it, especially if it is partially induced by vortex shearing. A hydraulic spring also would be less likely to resonate some as well. An inerter would likely control frequencies that could excite the suspension as well.
Last edited by Hoffman900 on Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 F1 cars porpoising on straight (aka "wobbling", "bumping")

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jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:05 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:02 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:53 pm
I think they should bring back the hydraulic heave spring to start.

It looks like a low rider :lol:

But in all seriousness, that is untenable for the driver for 2 hours.
The simplest way to prevent the oscillations is to raise the ride height slightly. :wink:
And give up downforce?! That's the issue, you raise the RH to get rid of this behaviour, 3 teams don't and you lose.

In all seriousness would a TMD or inerter have prevent this?! F1 can make itself look really stupid sometimes.
Yes, of course that's the issue and why they are trying run low. But if it can be done with the current rules by some cars then, the FIA might argue, there's nothing inherently wrong with those rules.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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godlameroso
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Re: Alpine A522

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It's just an engineering challenge, the team is full of engineers, so get on with it.
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henry
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Re: 2022 F1 cars porpoising on straight (aka "wobbling", "bumping")

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:36 pm
My non professional guess is they shouldn’t have changed the suspension rules and the aero concept at the same time, and opened up testing this year.
I agree. I think this behaviour was predictable even to someone in an armchair.

I suspect they may need to consider allowing some of the restricted components, particular inerters, but it may well be that teams don’t have the packaging space for them.
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NtsParadize
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Re: 2022 F1 cars porpoising on straight (aka "wobbling", "bumping")

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henry wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:11 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:36 pm
My non professional guess is they shouldn’t have changed the suspension rules and the aero concept at the same time, and opened up testing this year.
I agree. I think this behaviour was predictable even to someone in an armchair.

I suspect they may need to consider allowing some of the restricted components, particular inerters, but it may well be that teams don’t have the packaging space for them.
For 2023 then.

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Zynerji
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Re: Alpine A522

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minimum ride height regs incoming? :roll:

Hoffman900
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Re: Alpine A522

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:27 pm
minimum ride height regs incoming? :roll:
That too.

Inerters should fit within the current shock package, assuming they haven’t shrunk them any more than they have previously. I suspect this issue is more than an inerter will fix as I think they need to look at the heave spring rules as that is ultimately what sets dynamic ride height.

NtsParadize
NtsParadize
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Re: Alpine A522

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:27 pm
minimum ride height regs incoming? :roll:
They are already there.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Re: Alpine A522

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NtsParadize wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:48 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:27 pm
minimum ride height regs incoming? :roll:
They are already there.
They’ll have to make it higher.

That said, most ride height rules are static. This is a dynamic problem which is controlled by the heave spring, which the rules changed.

shamyakovic
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Re: ‘porpoising’…

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Would a 2006 style mass damper help the situation?