2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
User avatar
djos
112
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

djos wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:23 pm
It just occurred to me that in some racing series they use Bump-stops to control minimum ride height. How easy would it be for F1 teams to do the same?

eg:
https://www.resuspension.com/news/post/ ... thy-level/
“NASCAR was the first to do it,” he said. “We figured out that if we took all the spring rate out of the front and set the car down on the bump stops, we would keep a lower dynamic platform, which was better for aero and everything else. When we took those cars and tried to make them more like go-karts, we figured out that they worked better because, as the car travels up and down, your camber
curves and dynamic wedge numbers change. When we can take those variables out of the equation, the car works better. The car’s lower so the center of gravity is better, and the aero becomes more stable.”

The end result functions much like a dual rate or stacked spring setup might, but this approach allows for more dramatic changes than springs can typically provide. “The problem is that the rate split that we need is often very hard to do with a typical dual rate
spring,” Enders added. “And because we need to travel these cars so far, packaging can become an issue with a stacked setup. This approach is compact and easy to tune.”
Apparently no one likes my bump-stop theory?
"In downforce we trust"

User avatar
ojir19
38
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:40 am

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alfa ... g/8603114/
Teams were forced to make changes to the set-up of their cars through the first test to get the issue under control, including raising the ride height and adjusting the design of their floors.

Monchaux said he expected teams would have to set up their cars “slightly higher than we all thought at the beginning” because of the porpoising issue.

“The question will be how much higher, it is 3-5mm, or is it 20?” he said. “I hope it’s going to be five, because then the rework on the car will be less. But we’ll see.”
“I think in two or three races, nobody will speak again about bouncing,” Vasseur said.
okhörosinc bandhi-bandhi, mœnoghujlu sil ɥmhpleöng, kêmphád chømu kwærthwono

User avatar
JonoNic
4
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:54 pm

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

Is there a way to use vortices (maybe from the FW) to stall (not energize) the venturi tunnels at high speed? A speed higher than that used in the fastest corner in F1? Would that stop the porpoising at high speed and keep the efficiency in the slower parts of the track?

Sent from my SM-G9910 using Tapatalk

Always find the gap then use it.

piast9
piast9
20
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:39 pm

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

djos wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:16 pm
Apparently no one likes my bump-stop theory?
I am pretty sure they would be illegal. Suspension may consist only of springs and dampers. I am not sure if bump-stop would be considered as a spring.

User avatar
djos
112
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

piast9 wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:13 am
djos wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:16 pm
Apparently no one likes my bump-stop theory?
I am pretty sure they would be illegal. Suspension may consist only of springs and dampers. I am not sure if bump-stop would be considered as a spring.
Surely they would be legal as otherwise suspension systems would have a hard stop which could result in broken suspension when hitting curbs or other large bumps.
"In downforce we trust"

User avatar
Big Tea
99
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

djos wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:48 am
piast9 wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:13 am
djos wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:16 pm
Apparently no one likes my bump-stop theory?
I am pretty sure they would be illegal. Suspension may consist only of springs and dampers. I am not sure if bump-stop would be considered as a spring.
Surely they would be legal as otherwise suspension systems would have a hard stop which could result in broken suspension when hitting curbs or other large bumps.
When a damper runs out of movement, doesn't it have 'rubber' final stop?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
163
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:02 am

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

A bump stop is very much a spring. It can have a rate greater than the weight of the car above it or be progressive.

A bump stop is not a torsion spring, but all vehicles have a way to limit bump travel and using a shock to do it is the most expensive way to do it.

User avatar
vorticism
306
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:20 pm

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

Big Tea wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:55 pm

When a damper runs out of movement, doesn't it have 'rubber' final stop?
Yes, f.e. notice the red bushings here:

Image

Image
𓄀

User avatar
djos
112
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

Big Tea wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:55 pm
djos wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:48 am
piast9 wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:13 am

I am pretty sure they would be illegal. Suspension may consist only of springs and dampers. I am not sure if bump-stop would be considered as a spring.
Surely they would be legal as otherwise suspension systems would have a hard stop which could result in broken suspension when hitting curbs or other large bumps.
When a damper runs out of movement, doesn't it have 'rubber' final stop?
NASCAR bump stops look like this:

Image

And are basically small progressive rate springs.
"In downforce we trust"

User avatar
Big Tea
99
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

djos wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:59 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:55 pm
djos wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:48 am


Surely they would be legal as otherwise suspension systems would have a hard stop which could result in broken suspension when hitting curbs or other large bumps.
When a damper runs out of movement, doesn't it have 'rubber' final stop?
NASCAR bump stops look like this:

https://www.resuspension.com/pub/media ... rticle.jpg

And are basically small progressive rate springs.
Yeh, the old model Mini with hydroelestic suspension had them. Needed then too :mrgreen:

Image
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
djos
112
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

Big Tea wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:49 pm
djos wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:59 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:55 pm


When a damper runs out of movement, doesn't it have 'rubber' final stop?
NASCAR bump stops look like this:

https://www.resuspension.com/pub/media ... rticle.jpg

And are basically small progressive rate springs.
Yeh, the old model Mini with hydroelestic suspension had them. Needed then too :mrgreen:

http://www.minispares.com/image.axd?typ ... AM2764.jpg
Classic! :mrgreen:
"In downforce we trust"

User avatar
henry
324
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

No matter how stiff they make the suspension the tyres are still going to flex. Many of the tools they might have used in the past to control tyre oscillations have been taken away by the new regs.

When I watch the video of the Ferrari porpoising it seems to me there is significant deflection of the tyres, particularly the rear*. It will be hard for the teams to prevent this using the suspension and so aero cunning would seem the more likely fix.

*I may be seeing what I expect to see.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

User avatar
Big Tea
99
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

djos wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:34 am
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:49 pm
djos wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:59 pm


NASCAR bump stops look like this:

https://www.resuspension.com/pub/media ... rticle.jpg

And are basically small progressive rate springs.
Yeh, the old model Mini with hydroelestic suspension had them. Needed then too :mrgreen:

http://www.minispares.com/image.axd?typ ... AM2764.jpg
Classic! :mrgreen:
They worked very well actually. The conical shape means that with more travel there is more material to compress and it becomes (sort of) scaled to the impact
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
vorticism
306
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:20 pm

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

henry wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:26 am
No matter how stiff they make the suspension the tyres are still going to flex.
Image
Last edited by vorticism on Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
𓄀

User avatar
SiLo
127
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

Post

The tyrewalls are still very big even though they have moved to 18inch rims. So yes there will still be significant flex and movement vertically. It's likely better to solve it aerodynamically.
Felipe Baby!