Mercedes W13

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
hecti
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Re: McLaren MCL36

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Mchamilton wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:12 pm
MrGapes wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:30 pm
With regards to the Mirrors, if any team was to go for something as extreme as Mercedes, or even similar I'm sure they need to alter there sidepods, the Merc style wing is essentially a element of the sidepod, and there are limits as to the amount of sections in the sidepod volume, thus teams with undercuts wouldn't be able to have the same solution, the closest team that probably could replicate it is McLaren, even then that would require major alteration to the current sidepods.
I dont think people are refering to the merc 'SIS wing' when they are talkin about the mirror stays. Theyre talking about the 6(?) flow conditioners mercedes have behind and to the side of the mirrors.
If they are talking about the SIS wing, then i dont know why because its clearly legal anyway.
Yes, 100% the flow modifiers inside the "Mirror Box" and not the SIPS wings

(Its SIPS (Side Impact Protection System))

Starbuckle486
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Marty_Y wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:57 pm
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... l-ferrari/

MERCEDES UPGRADE CAUSES NERVOUSNESS
An uncopyable idea
The lap times of the completely renewed Mercedes are not to be feared yet. But you could be. And just in case, the competition is preparing to do so. Their problem is that the W13's sidepod solution cannot be duplicated this season.
Michael Smith 03/15/2022
Can the idea even be copied next season? I mean by teams other than the Mercedes customer teams? The engines have been frozen now and packaging is the thing that allows Mercedes to do what they do. I'm not sure the engine layouts of the other teams allow for that kind of packaging. They could maybe get some way there but not all the way.

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hollus
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Thunder wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:37 am
https://i.imgur.com/NVPF2Qz.png

This is the official Mercedes W13 car thread. The thread has been created to facilitate discussion specifically about the W13 car.

Please, ONLY discuss technical items of this car. Refrain from speculation.

General discussion about the team, its drivers and performance can be posted in the team thread.

Livery discussion also belongs in the 2022 Mercedes-AMG Petronas F1 Team thread.
I would like to see a paleontologist.

Mchamilton
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Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

hecti wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:55 pm
Mchamilton wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:12 pm
MrGapes wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:30 pm
With regards to the Mirrors, if any team was to go for something as extreme as Mercedes, or even similar I'm sure they need to alter there sidepods, the Merc style wing is essentially a element of the sidepod, and there are limits as to the amount of sections in the sidepod volume, thus teams with undercuts wouldn't be able to have the same solution, the closest team that probably could replicate it is McLaren, even then that would require major alteration to the current sidepods.
I dont think people are refering to the merc 'SIS wing' when they are talkin about the mirror stays. Theyre talking about the 6(?) flow conditioners mercedes have behind and to the side of the mirrors.
If they are talking about the SIS wing, then i dont know why because its clearly legal anyway.
Yes, 100% the flow modifiers inside the "Mirror Box" and not the SIPS wings

(Its SIPS (Side Impact Protection System))
Theyre called 'side impact structure' in the technical regulations

MrGapes
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Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

Mchamilton wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:12 pm
MrGapes wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:30 pm
With regards to the Mirrors, if any team was to go for something as extreme as Mercedes, or even similar I'm sure they need to alter there sidepods, the Merc style wing is essentially a element of the sidepod, and there are limits as to the amount of sections in the sidepod volume, thus teams with undercuts wouldn't be able to have the same solution, the closest team that probably could replicate it is McLaren, even then that would require major alteration to the current sidepods.
I dont think people are refering to the merc 'SIS wing' when they are talkin about the mirror stays. Theyre talking about the 6(?) flow conditioners mercedes have behind and to the side of the mirrors.
If they are talking about the SIS wing, then i dont know why because its clearly legal anyway.
Oh no I wasn’t responding to anyone I just meant generally

AR3-GP
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Re: McLaren MCL36

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I'm surprised people are so fussy about the little mirror stay on the Merc (the vertical one). It's not like that is performance defining. Mercedes will happily run without it if asked imo.

izzy
izzy
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Presumably only having a 60% car and tyres while the fluid is 100% viscosity and Reynolds no and all that must make a difference too? And they can only go up to 180kph, which is too low as well. Basically they've had to go actual testing to have any porpoising to study.

Anyway it seems to have got all the teams more or less equally. After the aero shock and awe my attention is shifting to the suspension, which Red Bull in particular are extremely good at and the W13 is going to have to match, trying to hold the floor just above the stall, have anti-dive and good traction and absorb kerbs. Apparently they switched to a non-hydraulic heave spring a couple of years ago, which is good, but they've lost the inerter which might be a loss. What else do we know?

SmallSoldier
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Re: McLaren MCL36

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:28 pm
I'm surprised people are so fussy about the little mirror stay on the Merc (the vertical one). It's not like that is performance defining. Mercedes will happily run without it if asked imo.
They wouldn’t have them if they didn’t add performance… My expectation is that it deemed legal, a lot of teams will approach them… The vortexes generated by them help clean up the flow to the back of the car, which is a key aspect for performance.

AR3-GP
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Re: McLaren MCL36

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Airshifter wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:44 am
SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:43 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:28 pm
I'm surprised people are so fussy about the little mirror stay on the Merc (the vertical one). It's not like that is performance defining. Mercedes will happily run without it if asked imo.
They wouldn’t have them if they didn’t add performance… My expectation is that it deemed legal, a lot of teams will approach them… The vortexes generated by them help clean up the flow to the back of the car, which is a key aspect for performance.
Being the new regs, someone has to push the limits of the regs to find out what will and won't be allowed. But I completely agree, nobody would do it if it had no benefit.

But overall McLaren look well planted. They just have to get those brake issues reeled in and find out where they really are. I'm hopeful they will perform well this year.
It's not that this mirror doesn't have any benefit, but rather than it's not like a team will go from first place to last place, or from last place to first place because of a mirror stay...

SmallSoldier
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Re: McLaren MCL36

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AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 1:15 am
Airshifter wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:44 am
SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:43 pm


They wouldn’t have them if they didn’t add performance… My expectation is that it deemed legal, a lot of teams will approach them… The vortexes generated by them help clean up the flow to the back of the car, which is a key aspect for performance.
Being the new regs, someone has to push the limits of the regs to find out what will and won't be allowed. But I completely agree, nobody would do it if it had no benefit.

But overall McLaren look well planted. They just have to get those brake issues reeled in and find out where they really are. I'm hopeful they will perform well this year.
It's not that this mirror doesn't have any benefit, but rather than it's not like a team will go from first place to last place, or from last place to first place because of a mirror stay...
No, it probably won’t… But the teams spend millions on trying to gain tenths of a second of performance, that’s why is creating so much controversy, not surprising really

AR3-GP
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Re: Mercedes W13

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holeindalip wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:14 am
izzy wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:43 pm
Presumably only having a 60% car and tyres while the fluid is 100% viscosity and Reynolds no and all that must make a difference too? And they can only go up to 180kph, which is too low as well. Basically they've had to go actual testing to have any porpoising to study.

Anyway it seems to have got all the teams more or less equally. After the aero shock and awe my attention is shifting to the suspension, which Red Bull in particular are extremely good at and the W13 is going to have to match, trying to hold the floor just above the stall, have anti-dive and good traction and absorb kerbs. Apparently they switched to a non-hydraulic heave spring a couple of years ago, which is good, but they've lost the inerter which might be a loss. What else do we know?
Mercedes are no slouches when it comes to suspension systems, just look back all the way to 2015 when the teams had their fric banned because everyone thought that’s where all their speed was coming from and it didn’t slow them down one bit….
People didn't think all the speed was coming from FRIC. They thought it was all coming from the PU :wink:

DinkLv
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Re: Mercedes W13

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:04 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:03 am
AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:48 am
Hmmm, I would think that sort of thing is commercially sensitive information that Mercedes and Reaction Engines might not like broadcast. If FOM have privileged access to such information, they probably shouldn't be throwing it out in interviews.

Aside from that, if it's true that they're using that sort of technology then that's pretty damn cool! (excuse the pun)
Yeah same here. Bit of an eyebrow raising moment.

FlowViz on the sidepod entry and front floor area.

https://imgr1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/G ... 880127.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNjykZJXIAM ... name=large
Here's a top view of the flow-viz on Merc's sidepod undercut, also from AMuS. Seems like the outwash was no weaker due to the inlet itself being a stagnation zone, but Merc was probably trying to avoid having the high-static-pressure undercut flow flipping over the sidepod's outer spline with such a bottom-wide design.

Image

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Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Great photo! There is really nowhere else the air can go in that area, other than sideways. Teams like Mercedes and McLaren use this to induce a strong floor-sealing vortex as soon as they can.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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SiLo
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Re: Mercedes W13

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DinkLv wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:08 am
AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:04 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:03 am

Hmmm, I would think that sort of thing is commercially sensitive information that Mercedes and Reaction Engines might not like broadcast. If FOM have privileged access to such information, they probably shouldn't be throwing it out in interviews.

Aside from that, if it's true that they're using that sort of technology then that's pretty damn cool! (excuse the pun)
Yeah same here. Bit of an eyebrow raising moment.

FlowViz on the sidepod entry and front floor area.

https://imgr1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/G ... 880127.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNjykZJXIAM ... name=large
Here's a top view of the flow-viz on Merc's sidepod undercut, also from AMuS. Seems like the outwash was no weaker due to the inlet itself being a stagnation zone, but Merc was probably trying to avoid having the high-static-pressure undercut flow flipping over the sidepod's outer spline with such a bottom-wide design.

https://imgr1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/G ... 880226.jpg
The attachment in that area is very strong, quite impressive really. Thanks for the great photo.
Felipe Baby!

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W13

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DinkLv wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:08 am


Here's a top view of the flow-viz on Merc's sidepod undercut, also from AMuS. Seems like the outwash was no weaker due to the inlet itself being a stagnation zone, but Merc was probably trying to avoid having the high-static-pressure undercut flow flipping over the sidepod's outer spline with such a bottom-wide design.

https://imgr1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/G ... 880226.jpg
I don't suppose anyone has a photo from the rear of the same car with that flow viz on it? That would be great because we might see what, if any, of that flow ends up going under the floor and through the diffuser.

And I don't think the inlet is in a stagnation zone - they have two large vortex devices on the tub wall in front of the inlet that will be encouraging air to flow down and on to the floor in front of the sidepod inlet.
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