FIA Thread

[KeiKo403]

With arguments like that we’ll soon be hearing that under the new rules of “all cars that have been lapped…” doesn’t only apply for currently lapped cars, maybe if at any point during the race you’ve been lapped (and subsequently been able to return to the lead lap) then you are entitled to lead the race.

[NicoS]

Red bull absolutly right:

Use any for a specific instance of a group, any kid, any bus, any car, any word, any answer, and use all to mention every instance of a collection.
"I want any of the food on the table", makes me picky.
"I want all of the food on the table", makes me greedy.

"All" means every one of the available choices. "Any" means some subset of the available choices. Depending on context, it may mean just one, or it could mean that more than one is allowed.

"I'll take all of the candy in that box." If there are 30 pieces of candy in the box, then I want 30 pieces.
"I'll take any of the candy in that box." If there are 30 pieces of candy in the box, then I don't care which you give me, you pick one.

All cars on the parking lot means, every single car. No car is being excluded.
Any car on the parking lot means, any specific car on the parking lot, but not every single one of them.

So if the owner of this site was to say, any user on this forum with a user name beginning with the letter N is banned for life. Do you think it doesn't apply to you or I ? Or do we get banned ? Simple simple question, please just answer the question.

If the owner of the forum wanted to ban all users with 1st letter "N" he would state:
"All usernames starting with the letter "N" will now be banned"
clear, concise, simple.

[tpe]

Are you discussing about FIA or how laws/rules are written in English instead of any (pan-intended) other more accurate/ specific/whatever language?

The problem is that people try to interpret the rules and the words. In my mind, race directors from different categories, should have some common trainings/meetings, and exchange ideas about the rules. For example, endurance racing directors for F1, F1 for Rally etc.
Because rules are not written by them. Another point of view on them could be beneficial.

[Tvetovnato]

Come. On.

Masi set the precedent HIMSELF in the Eifel GP 2020, that there is a requirement that all lapped cars should pass. So it was already 100 % clear from before what ”any” means in this case. There is absolutely zero sporting reason in that a race director can CHOOSE which lapped cars should pass also, since that would mean that drivers will be treated differently to one another, and some will be given an unfair advantage compared to others.

Just as Max was given in Abu Dhabi.

Sorry to say, but that’s the way it is.

[dans79]

If the owner of the forum wanted to ban all users with 1st letter "N" he would state:
"All usernames starting with the letter "N" will now be banned"
clear, concise, simple.

In the context of the sporting regulation in question and the example of usernames given, "any" and "all" have the exact same meaning.

[Just_a_fan]

If the owner of the forum wanted to ban all users with 1st letter "N" he would state:
"All usernames starting with the letter "N" will now be banned"
clear, concise, simple.

But "Any usernames starting with the letter "N" will now be banned" would mean the same thing.

"Any person found out of their house after 9pm will be arrested". Does that mean they pick and choose who to arrest after 9pm? No, it means everyone who breaks the curfew will be arrested.

[S D]

Q: Had Hamilton pitted would the decision have been okay to let them fight it out on the race track?
Should the FIA put into consideration Mercedes choosing not to pit Hamilton and Redbull pitting Verstappen for fresh tires or should it purely be a racing decision?

If so then it would be a tactical decision to not pit the leader to ensure that unlapping would not occur.

I would have chosen to let them fight to the finish as a finish behind a safety car would be a disappointment.

I also do not like the unlapping procedure. I have been watching F1 for many years and I don't get why they wait so long to unlap. Why not allow it earlier at low speed so that there is no danger to the marshalls? Or better still why unlap at all, simply allow the front runners to pass the lapped cars as soon as it's safe? This could happen early on soon after the safety car comes out.

[NathanOlder]

Red bull absolutly right:

Use any for a specific instance of a group, any kid, any bus, any car, any word, any answer, and use all to mention every instance of a collection.
"I want any of the food on the table", makes me picky.
"I want all of the food on the table", makes me greedy.

"All" means every one of the available choices. "Any" means some subset of the available choices. Depending on context, it may mean just one, or it could mean that more than one is allowed.

"I'll take all of the candy in that box." If there are 30 pieces of candy in the box, then I want 30 pieces.
"I'll take any of the candy in that box." If there are 30 pieces of candy in the box, then I don't care which you give me, you pick one.

All cars on the parking lot means, every single car. No car is being excluded.
Any car on the parking lot means, any specific car on the parking lot, but not every single one of them.

So you can't answer the question because the answer wont be to your liking. Thats fair enough. Thank you fro proving my point buddy.
So if the owner of this site was to say, any user on this forum with a user name beginning with the letter N is banned for life. Do you think it doesn't apply to you or I ? Or do we get banned ? Simple simple question, please just answer the question.

If the owner of the forum wanted to ban all users with 1st letter "N" he would state:
"All usernames starting with the letter "N" will now be banned"
clear, concise, simple.

No, it just means you cant answer my question, because the answer wont be to your liking, thank you for proving my point buddy.

[Airshifter]

They replaced the word any with all.

"all cars that have been lapped" means all cars not some of the cars.

Any means all the cars too. Its ridiculous that anyone can read 'any' as 'some'. If any was to mean some, then it would be worded 'any number'

Do you have any spare change?

That depends on any mods putting an end to this senseless language debate that will never end.

And since any means all in language, I guess it's going to take a meeting of sorts since you will all have to be involved. Well made point!



(below directed in general)

So now they have changed the wording, and everyone that was sour before is still going to be sour. Masi is gone, some rules have been clarified, and at any given chance in any given thread it feels like a great number of people are still 10 minutes after the season finale last year.

We need to have some type of forum area for those that wish to tell anyone that disagrees with them that they are wrong. And that might mean that everyone is wrong, since any means all. But seriously, other than try to sort things out there is nothing else they can do at this point.

[Stu]

Any means all the cars too. Its ridiculous that anyone can read 'any' as 'some'. If any was to mean some, then it would be worded 'any number'

Do you have any spare change?

That depends on any mods putting an end to this senseless language debate that will never end.

And since any means all in language, I guess it's going to take a meeting of sorts since you will all have to be involved. Well made point!



(below directed in general)

So now they have changed the wording, and everyone that was sour before is still going to be sour. Masi is gone, some rules have been clarified, and at any given chance in any given thread it feels like a great number of people are still 10 minutes after the season finale last year.

We need to have some type of forum area for those that wish to tell anyone that disagrees with them that they are wrong. And that might mean that everyone is wrong, since any means all. But seriously, other than try to sort things out there is nothing else they can do at this point.

Thank you Airshifter, love your post!!

Please let this be an end to this. We are now in a new season and hopefully there will be a lot of new things to talk about.

[Big Tea]

Red bull absolutly right:

Use any for a specific instance of a group, any kid, any bus, any car, any word, any answer, and use all to mention every instance of a collection.
"I want any of the food on the table", makes me picky.
"I want all of the food on the table", makes me greedy.

"All" means every one of the available choices. "Any" means some subset of the available choices. Depending on context, it may mean just one, or it could mean that more than one is allowed.

"I'll take all of the candy in that box." If there are 30 pieces of candy in the box, then I want 30 pieces.
"I'll take any of the candy in that box." If there are 30 pieces of candy in the box, then I don't care which you give me, you pick one.

All cars on the parking lot means, every single car. No car is being excluded.
Any car on the parking lot means, any specific car on the parking lot, but not every single one of them.

So if the owner of this site was to say, any user on this forum with a user name beginning with the letter N is banned for life. Do you think it doesn't apply to you or I ? Or do we get banned ? Simple simple question, please just answer the question.

If the owner of the forum wanted to ban all users with 1st letter "N" he would state:
"All usernames starting with the letter "N" will now be banned"
clear, concise, simple.

But would that also apply to those with a user name starting with 'n' or even '.N'

[Just_a_fan]

Q: Had Hamilton pitted would the decision have been okay to let them fight it out on the race track?
Should the FIA put into consideration Mercedes choosing not to pit Hamilton and Redbull pitting Verstappen for fresh tires or should it purely be a racing decision?

If so then it would be a tactical decision to not pit the leader to ensure that unlapping would not occur.

Mercedes' decision was based on what had gone before and what was written in the rues: the likelihood was that either the lapped cars would be unlapped and the race would finish behind the safety car and Hamilton would win, or that the lapped cars would be left in place and be in the way and thus give Hamilton a chance.

Had they pitted in either case they would have been behind Max and thus would lose in one case and likely lose in the other case. So it was a no-brainer to stay out.

It's worth reiterating that this situation only existed because Perez did a brilliant job slowing Hamilton down earlier in the race. This cut c.10s from the gap between Max and Lewis. Without that, Lewis would have probably been far enough ahead of Max when the safety car came out that Mercedes could pit him and come out ahead of Max. Perez deserves much more kudos than he seems to have received.

But in answer to the first part - no, the RD shouldn't consider what the teams are doing. It should really be a simple procedure: SC out, sort out the track, unlap lapped cars, SC in. That's it. The RD shouldn't look at anything other than that and shouldn't take any note of who is where on track (other than knowing if there are any lapped cars that need to be unlapped). If the procedure ends up with the race ending behind the SC then so what? If that is an issue for the teams and FOM, then just change the procedure to throw a red flag if a SC condition occurs in the last 10 laps. No working on the cars, just put fans in the sidepods and a blanket on the tyres and then do a standing restart.

[S D]

How do you feel about letting the cars on the current lap through the lapped cars? They are lapped anyway why unlap at all?

[NathanOlder]

How do you feel about letting the cars on the current lap through the lapped cars? They are lapped anyway why unlap at all?

The only problem with that is, when the leaders lap cars well in to the points, which happens a lot, its unfair on some of those. Lets say Ricciardo was battling Leclerc for 7th and 8th. The leader just lapped Leclerc in 8th and the safety car is brought out. That would then mean Leclerc ends up a lap down on Ricciardo, when in reality he was 2 seconds behind him after allowing the leader to lap him under blue flags.

[Stu]

What I really don’t get is why lapped cars can unlap themselves anyway? They are lapped because either they are slow (and have been lapped) or they have binned it/damaged the car/punctured and have been lapped. If a car is two laps down, the phrase ‘unlapping’ suggests that they should circulate until they are back on the lead lap.
Lapped cars should stay lapped, and ‘fall’ back through the field. A red flag/race stoppage should be the same.