Elaborate, please. Tell me why it is and offer up a sound explanation backing it up.ryaan2904 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 06:13This is bullshitHoffman900 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 01:04I would have a real hard time believing the resin in the lift pump would break down with 5% more ethanol content. Everything in the US is E10 since they banned MTBE as an oxygenator and the fuel issues people had early on were due to it cleaning gunk out of the tank, not plastics. If they switched to E85 that would be a different story.
Heating of the fuel could be an issue, especially depending on packaging.
Vibrations inherent to the Honda could also cause the fuel lines / pumps / etc to go into resonance. This is far fetched but you can observe this with side draft carburetor engines. If you are brave, stand next to the engine on the dyno and you won’t be able to grab the float bowl. The carburetor bowl will resonate at such frequency at certain bad harmonics that the fuel foams. The lift pump pressure is probably nothing wild. I forget what the injector pressure has to be. I recently learned it’s 5000psi in DTM. I would have to think about this a little harder before I put any stock as an actual failure mode.
I am not shocked to learn teams in general struggled some with the switch, especially if they, like Honda, are using a hybrid HCCI / TJI combustion concept. I believe Honda only made this combustion concept work reliably by having a fuel developed especially for it. Otherwise it was inconsistent and more a happy accident than anything going by Wazari’s posts.
It is interesting that the RBR cars complained of decreasing power prior.
If fuel was falling off, then the engine would be derating itself, but this absolutely would have showed up along pit wall along with fuel pressure (I have no doubt that is sent to pit wall as well) and I believe would have resulted in a grenaded IC much more quickly.
Gasly’s failure was sudden, so that looks to be an entirely different issue and if that is the cam driven injector pump, that is a Honda part / design (which goes back to my one hypothesis about resonance) as that is directly bolted to the engine and not soft mounted like fuel lines should be.
Amus, Scarbs and Horner, all confirmed its a fuel pump issue.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 06:14Elaborate, please. Tell me why it is and offer up a sound explanation backing it up. I looked up your posts, I’m not expecting much.ryaan2904 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 06:13This is bullshitHoffman900 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 01:04I would have a real hard time believing the resin in the lift pump would break down with 5% more ethanol content. Everything in the US is E10 since they banned MTBE as an oxygenator and the fuel issues people had early on were due to it cleaning gunk out of the tank, not plastics. If they switched to E85 that would be a different story.
Heating of the fuel could be an issue, especially depending on packaging.
Vibrations inherent to the Honda could also cause the fuel lines / pumps / etc to go into resonance. This is far fetched but you can observe this with side draft carburetor engines. If you are brave, stand next to the engine on the dyno and you won’t be able to grab the float bowl. The carburetor bowl will resonate at such frequency at certain bad harmonics that the fuel foams. The lift pump pressure is probably nothing wild. I forget what the injector pressure has to be. I recently learned it’s 5000psi in DTM. I would have to think about this a little harder before I put any stock as an actual failure mode.
I am not shocked to learn teams in general struggled some with the switch, especially if they, like Honda, are using a hybrid HCCI / TJI combustion concept. I believe Honda only made this combustion concept work reliably by having a fuel developed especially for it. Otherwise it was inconsistent and more a happy accident than anything going by Wazari’s posts.
It is interesting that the RBR cars complained of decreasing power prior.
If fuel was falling off, then the engine would be derating itself, but this absolutely would have showed up along pit wall along with fuel pressure (I have no doubt that is sent to pit wall as well) and I believe would have resulted in a grenaded IC much more quickly.
Gasly’s failure was sudden, so that looks to be an entirely different issue and if that is the cam driven injector pump, that is a Honda part / design (which goes back to my one hypothesis about resonance) as that is directly bolted to the engine and not soft mounted like fuel lines should be.
According to The Race, they basically ran out of gas due to miscalculation of the heat of the fuel at low fuel levels because they didn’t do any race simulations down to that level. I don’t know if that is true or not, but it is a theory.
Gasly's failureryaan2904 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 06:09Good news: Its been confirmed both RBR issues were an FIA spec part problem.
Bad news: gasly's engine failure was totally unrelated, it was an MGUK shaft failure.
It was rumored in testing that honda has a bit of an mguk issue.
Good news: MGUKs have not been homologated. So honda can add performance and reliability both simultaneously
Also good news, the fire was not the ICE. It was the mguk coolant oil catching fire due to mguk failure
Mostly confirmed on all this
Cool, well I didn’t have that information available. I don’t stare at F1twitter all day (or at all). You could have just posted this to begin with…ryaan2904 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 06:24Amus, Scarbs and Horner, all confirmed its a fuel pump issue.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 06:14Elaborate, please. Tell me why it is and offer up a sound explanation backing it up. I looked up your posts, I’m not expecting much.
According to The Race, they basically ran out of gas due to miscalculation of the heat of the fuel at low fuel levels because they didn’t do any race simulations down to that level. I don’t know if that is true or not, but it is a theory.
Mclaren changed their fuel pumps after quali, before the race.
Fia went far enough to take off the parc-ferme restrictions on the top 10 qualifiers, so that they could inspect the fuel pumps and teams could change them (mclaren) if they wanted.
Amus noted this issue during testing. Whether they reported it then or now, I'm not sure.
Sorry, knowing the root of the issues, I found the whole deep fuel-injection-hypothesis a little annoyingHoffman900 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 06:28Cool, well I didn’t have that information available. I don’t stare at F1twitter all day (or at all). You could have just posted this to begin with…ryaan2904 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 06:24Amus, Scarbs and Horner, all confirmed its a fuel pump issue.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 06:14
Elaborate, please. Tell me why it is and offer up a sound explanation backing it up. I looked up your posts, I’m not expecting much.
According to The Race, they basically ran out of gas due to miscalculation of the heat of the fuel at low fuel levels because they didn’t do any race simulations down to that level. I don’t know if that is true or not, but it is a theory.
Mclaren changed their fuel pumps after quali, before the race.
Fia went far enough to take off the parc-ferme restrictions on the top 10 qualifiers, so that they could inspect the fuel pumps and teams could change them (mclaren) if they wanted.
Amus noted this issue during testing. Whether they reported it then or now, I'm not sure.
It’s still ironic that it only caught one supplier out. Maybe that missed something in testing that the others saw. Who knows. I doubt we’ll get the real story anyway, just rumors from unnamed sources.
Do you have the source for this statement? I've seen nothing but speculation myself, including from those that many follow.
Why would you ever even consider such an outrageous theory? Running out of fuel after a lengthy SC period and verstappen stopping a whole 3 laps before the end would mean red bull are bunch of morons incapable of using a calculator. Sorry, but whoever proposed they ran out of fuel wasn't thinking straight and anyone who believed it also didn't put one thought into it. Sometimes when people are full of BS you just have to call it out, sorry.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 06:14Elaborate, please. Tell me why it is and offer up a sound explanation backing it up.ryaan2904 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 06:13This is bullshitHoffman900 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 01:04I would have a real hard time believing the resin in the lift pump would break down with 5% more ethanol content. Everything in the US is E10 since they banned MTBE as an oxygenator and the fuel issues people had early on were due to it cleaning gunk out of the tank, not plastics. If they switched to E85 that would be a different story.
Heating of the fuel could be an issue, especially depending on packaging.
Vibrations inherent to the Honda could also cause the fuel lines / pumps / etc to go into resonance. This is far fetched but you can observe this with side draft carburetor engines. If you are brave, stand next to the engine on the dyno and you won’t be able to grab the float bowl. The carburetor bowl will resonate at such frequency at certain bad harmonics that the fuel foams. The lift pump pressure is probably nothing wild. I forget what the injector pressure has to be. I recently learned it’s 5000psi in DTM. I would have to think about this a little harder before I put any stock as an actual failure mode.
I am not shocked to learn teams in general struggled some with the switch, especially if they, like Honda, are using a hybrid HCCI / TJI combustion concept. I believe Honda only made this combustion concept work reliably by having a fuel developed especially for it. Otherwise it was inconsistent and more a happy accident than anything going by Wazari’s posts.
It is interesting that the RBR cars complained of decreasing power prior.
If fuel was falling off, then the engine would be derating itself, but this absolutely would have showed up along pit wall along with fuel pressure (I have no doubt that is sent to pit wall as well) and I believe would have resulted in a grenaded IC much more quickly.
Gasly’s failure was sudden, so that looks to be an entirely different issue and if that is the cam driven injector pump, that is a Honda part / design (which goes back to my one hypothesis about resonance) as that is directly bolted to the engine and not soft mounted like fuel lines should be.
According to The Race, they basically ran out of gas due to miscalculation of the heat of the fuel at low fuel levels because they didn’t do any race simulations down to that level. I don’t know if that is true or not, but it is a theory.