why aren't diesels in f1?

[greggy_thommo]

Seeing as over 50% of all cars sold in Europe are now diesel, surely there would be some benefits of having this research in formula 1? Wouldn't economy be a large factor during a race?

[gear_dawg]

Its a simple matter of acceleration. A normal Gasoline engine can and does produce its max Hp and tourqe in a short burst; however when compared to a diesel, it takes time to get up to speed. In F1 there are some tracks with many twists and turns, its a NO NO for a car that needs to be at maximum velocity in the the minimum amount of time.

Further issues are that in F1 cars are Natrual Aspired and a Diesel is a super or turbo charged power plant. Also because of the compression ratios required in a diesel, weight would be a MAJOR issue. It wouldn'e be F1 Economical so to speak.

Diesels do have some advantages:
Tourqe, and lots of it
Reliablility, far less upkeep
They run cooler
They use less fuel
They can take far more abuse

Gasoline engine have the following:
Punch it for get up and go go go!
Easier to fix/replace broken parts
Fuel is cheaper (now it is)
Lighter materials can be used
Can be naturaly aspired (about 7:1ratio)

[Guest]

great. thanks.

out of interest, why do diesels develop so much torque?

[DaveKillens]

Diesels have been raced many times, over many years. They have certain advantages, and disadvantages. They are also very capable of running without forced induction.
As gear dawg pointed out, the compression ratio makes everything much more difficult. I would suggest you follow the thread in this forum, it is enlightening.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=64541&page=4

On my opinion, maybe one of the largest drawbacks against diesels racing is public perception. To most, diesels are considered workhorses, tough little engines that just keep on running. That's nice if you sell delivery vans. But in the world of adrenaline pumping Formula One, glitz and bling do matter. It's hard to convince any manufacturer to invest .. maybe a billion dollars on an engine program that probably won't see public acceptance. Or racing success, not against the type of engines currently running.

[riff_raff]

Don't forget about the turbine engine cars that ran at Indy and LeMans back in the 60's. The Lotus at Indy and the Rover at LeMans both almost won their races. They both burned jet fuel which is very similar to diesel.

Love them oil burners!

[DaveKillens]

That rover gas turbine had a long career doing unexciting chores. When I was in the air force, we had an auxiliary power supply (we don't like using the expensive, sensitive aircraft ni-cad batteries for starting duties) that used that very Rover gas turbine. It was very, very similar to the firefighters pump described in here, apart from having an electical generator instead of a pump, and the additional luxury of an electric start.
http://www.corestore.org/turbine.htm
If you observe the rear of the turbine, it just exhausts directly out. On startup, with excess fuel most likely being burned off, it gave out a light and fire show the Batmobile couldnt come close to.

Here is a web page that lists most of the advantages opf gas turbines http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rberndt6/home.html

[Scuderia_Russ]

Diesels are gaining more momentum in the sportscar arena, especially with a few teams in Le Mans. I read recently in Race Tech that diesel technology and power outputs could rival that of petrol engines in the next few years.

[Guest]

yeah, next we could have electric formula one cars! maybe even ones running on steam, my god that would be fascinating!

[DaveKillens]

Diesels should be taken seriously in racing. Even without massive technical support, there are a few racing diesels. Especially in endurance racing, expect to see a lot more.

[bcsolutions]

Diesel engines are more popular than ever thanks to recent application in high performance vehicles. Most of the major european and Japanese (even Honda who have in the past shunned diesel technology) car manufacturers are producing models with high performance C/I engines. These days most of the diesel engines produced for passenger vehicles, particularly higher performance models are turbocharged. In the past this caused various problems such as increased fuel consumption, weight and complication. Diesel engines traditionally have fairly narrow power bands, when "on boost" turbocharging only seemed to heighten the situation and without the correct gearing the engines power delivery could seem erratic. This of course is not ideal in a performance application. In recent years the advancement in turbocharger technology allows far greater control over the boost charateristics meaning that many of these problems can be overcome, the new "Twin Scroll" turbos being a case in point. Advances in new lightweight materials also ensures that the engines can be built light AND strong. In the past C/I engines were typically very heavy and rugged due to their higher compression ratios etc. Modern day diesels are still not to everyones taste (i personally prefer the characteristics of a petrol engine) but there importance is undeniable and they surely can't be ignored. I don't think it will be long before their relevance extends well into the higher echelons of motorsport.

[jgm]

A diesel engined car took pole position at Indianapolis in 1952 with a record lap of 139 MPH and was reckoned to have the potential to go the whole of the 500 miles on one tank of 50 gallons of fuel. It was also the first turbocharged race car and, unfortunately it was the turbo installation which let it down when the low air intake became blocked.

[bcsolutions]

10mpg is fantastic for a racing car. I'd be interested to learn more about this car/engine, do you know where i can find more information?

Ben

[DaveKillens]

In 1952 the Cummins Diesel Special, driven by Freddie Agabashian got the pole (138.010 mph) on first day of qualifying. At the time it was a record, even though Bill Vukovich got 138.212 mph, and Chet Miller in the Novi got 139.034 mph a week later. Due to the manner in which qualifying is applied at Indy, Freddie got the pole.
And just like the tale of the turbines at Indy, parts failure led to a DNF. Rules changes made both concepts impratical for racing at Indy.

[riff_raff]

The reason you don't see diesel race engines is that the compression-ignited (diesel) piston engine is, by nature, a low speed engine. Many years ago, it was determined that compression ignited engines operate most efficiently at mean piston speeds of about 2000 ft/min or less. Characteristically, they have very sluggish combustion. Current F1 engines (spark-ignited) operate at mean piston speeds exceeding 5000 ft/min. Race cars rely on horsepower to make them go fast. Engine horsepower increases porportionally to engine speed, all other things being equal. Therefore, you want your race engine to run as fast as possible.

You can, of course, run CI diesel engines at high piston speeds, but what ends up happening is that combustion will still be taking place as the piston reaches BDC and the exhaust valve opens. All you end up with is wasted fuel, lots of black smoke and not much more horsepower.

Regards,
Terry

[pompelmo]

Diesel's are great engines..but not for racing!
-Heavy
-Less power in the same ccm's as benz...(aprox. 20% less power)
and power is needed (!) for acceleration and for to speed!
-Diesel's are good for heavy loads due to it's high torque..
-...