2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dialtone wrote:
09 May 2022, 01:44
Juzh wrote:
09 May 2022, 01:12
JordanMugen wrote:
09 May 2022, 00:57


Thanks! =D>
Dont listen to him just because he throws out some hard to read cherry picked graphs. That one trace doesn't prove anything. Instead looking at actual time deltas it was very obvious perez was lacking power as he was losing time to sainz on every straight even with very close slipstream, while it was the opposite before that sensor had failed. Also with better tyres at the end red bull should fly past any ferrari as we've seen god knows how many times this season, instead he could barely keep up.
That's not true... How many laps do you want me to pull? Here's every single lap after SC restart:
47: https://i.imgur.com/dLhhiPX.jpeg (equal SAI, +3kph on VER)
48: https://i.imgur.com/Wm1jTWF.jpeg (+8 on SAI, +6 on VER)
49: https://i.imgur.com/l9QGoEf.jpeg (DRS from here, +20 SAI, +23 VER)
50: https://i.imgur.com/KXh8wZg.jpeg (+30 SAI, +23 VER)
51: https://i.imgur.com/2NaZrpQ.jpeg (+32 SAI, +27 VER)
52: https://i.imgur.com/3u8ESP2.jpeg (failed pass attempt, -4 SAI, -2 VER)
53: https://i.imgur.com/JHl4l4h.jpeg (no DRS from here, +6 SAI, +3 VER)
54: https://i.imgur.com/87UssFs.jpeg (+5 SAI, +1 VER)
55: https://i.imgur.com/eR6Grmm.jpeg (+4 SAI, +4 VER)
56: https://i.imgur.com/b5fpiqK.jpeg (+2 SAI, +3 VER)
57: https://i.imgur.com/StG4cAS.jpeg (+1 SAI, 0 VER)

How is this an engine with hp deficit? smh...
More interviews:
https://streamja.com/0jneG
(comments about engine start somewhere in the middle of clip)

Why do you think horner would lie about something like this? I just dont get it :?

dialtone
dialtone
108
Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Can you please explain why the telemetry doesn't show any loss?

I don't care what any team says when the data shows something else.

Watto
Watto
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Joined: 10 Mar 2022, 15:12

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dialtone wrote:
09 May 2022, 01:48
Can you please explain why the telemetry doesn't show any loss?

I don't care what any team says when the data shows something else.
Perhaps after the safety car, Perez was on new mediums, Sainz was on fairly old hards, Perez was able to close in on Sainz but not pass; it was very simular to when they were on nearly identical tyre conditions, it takes out a human element to things too; when you're on the tail of an opponent are you driving a little different i.e. try and setup an overtake in a few laps, or in a few corners rather then push for pure pace if you knew your over taking opportunity was within a certain section of the track. Data can lie, seen it in other sports where pure data won't really translate well to a result. By all means perhaps there wasn't an issue, or RB may have been over stating it but data can be misrepresented IMO.

dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Watto wrote:
09 May 2022, 02:46
dialtone wrote:
09 May 2022, 01:48
Can you please explain why the telemetry doesn't show any loss?

I don't care what any team says when the data shows something else.
Perhaps after the safety car, Perez was on new mediums, Sainz was on fairly old hards, Perez was able to close in on Sainz but not pass; it was very simular to when they were on nearly identical tyre conditions, it takes out a human element to things too; when you're on the tail of an opponent are you driving a little different i.e. try and setup an overtake in a few laps, or in a few corners rather then push for pure pace if you knew your over taking opportunity was within a certain section of the track. Data can lie, seen it in other sports where pure data won't really translate well to a result. By all means perhaps there wasn't an issue, or RB may have been over stating it but data can be misrepresented IMO.
I gain nothing overall so I'm happy to give the benefit of the doubt here, I think a power loss of 30hp would be very evident in acceleration and traction out of 17, and if battery deployment was impacted you would see increase in recovery and other anomalies, but who knows... Ferrari's 2019 engine had maybe a 30-35 hp advantage and it was enough to be faster in Monza without DRS against Merc. IMHO the engine overheated behind Sainz for 17 laps and when Perez was on his own it cooled off and it went back to normal. Checo was losing most of the time in the corners in S1 and wasn't gaining anything in T11-17 in most of his last 10 laps against Sainz, he attempted the pass in T1 because that gave him 2 consecutive straights to get closer with superior traction from RBR.

For what it's worth I think Perez had better pace than Sainz on both compounds even before lap 17. And Sainz was very lucky that the off-line part of the track wasn't rubbered in or Checo would have passed and gapped rather than finishing long. According to Verstappen RedBull had issues heating tyres after SC here, reason why Leclerc was better on Hards at the beginning of restart, but once Max tyres went to temp he was able to make a gap. It's possible the same applies to Checo v Sainz too somehow.

Image

These are 4 laps overlapped from SAI and PER around when PER had engine issue. Very recognizable what laps are before and after. Of course it's easy to see the specific lap with the issue, 19, and the laps immediately after he had trouble with speed above 280kph.

Image
I don't see the same difficulty scaling above 280kph in laps 47-51.

Image
This is a lap from Perez before (green) and after (red) with the same distance from Sainz in front (to try and normalize for wake, in both cases it's just about 1s behind Sainz without DRS), both cases medium tyre with about the same age, only difference is fuel load and that's easy to see in S1 and technical section and in braking.

The very top end above 300kph maybe is missing a smidge on the straight to T11, but traction and acceleration up to 300kph seems identical and on the 2 straights to T17 and finish line it seems identical to me...

I still may be misinterpreting data I suppose. Anyway, good race, great drive, great car, RB-18 looks 0.2s ahead of F1-75 right now. Deserved win for Max. Have a nice week.

Watto
Watto
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Joined: 10 Mar 2022, 15:12

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dialtone wrote:
09 May 2022, 03:34
Watto wrote:
09 May 2022, 02:46
dialtone wrote:
09 May 2022, 01:48
Can you please explain why the telemetry doesn't show any loss?

I don't care what any team says when the data shows something else.
Perhaps after the safety car, Perez was on new mediums, Sainz was on fairly old hards, Perez was able to close in on Sainz but not pass; it was very simular to when they were on nearly identical tyre conditions, it takes out a human element to things too; when you're on the tail of an opponent are you driving a little different i.e. try and setup an overtake in a few laps, or in a few corners rather then push for pure pace if you knew your over taking opportunity was within a certain section of the track. Data can lie, seen it in other sports where pure data won't really translate well to a result. By all means perhaps there wasn't an issue, or RB may have been over stating it but data can be misrepresented IMO.
I gain nothing overall so I'm happy to give the benefit of the doubt here, I think a power loss of 30hp would be very evident in acceleration and traction out of 17, and if battery deployment was impacted you would see increase in recovery and other anomalies, but who knows... Ferrari's 2019 engine had maybe a 30-35 hp advantage and it was enough to be faster in Monza without DRS against Merc. IMHO the engine overheated behind Sainz for 17 laps and when Perez was on his own it cooled off and it went back to normal. Checo was losing most of the time in the corners in S1 and wasn't gaining anything in T11-17 in most of his last 10 laps against Sainz, he attempted the pass in T1 because that gave him 2 consecutive straights to get closer with superior traction from RBR.

For what it's worth I think Perez had better pace than Sainz on both compounds even before lap 17. And Sainz was very lucky that the off-line part of the track wasn't rubbered in or Checo would have passed and gapped rather than finishing long. According to Verstappen RedBull had issues heating tyres after SC here, reason why Leclerc was better on Hards at the beginning of restart, but once Max tyres went to temp he was able to make a gap. It's possible the same applies to Checo v Sainz too somehow.

https://i.imgur.com/SV9hfo5.jpeg

These are 4 laps overlapped from SAI and PER around when PER had engine issue. Very recognizable what laps are before and after. Of course it's easy to see the specific lap with the issue, 19, and the laps immediately after he had trouble with speed above 280kph.

https://i.imgur.com/FE8DDmB.jpeg
I don't see the same difficulty scaling above 280kph in laps 47-51.

https://i.imgur.com/dNCi238.jpeg
This is a lap from Perez before (green) and after (red) with the same distance from Sainz in front (to try and normalize for wake, in both cases it's just about 1s behind Sainz without DRS), both cases medium tyre with about the same age, only difference is fuel load and that's easy to see in S1 and technical section and in braking.

The very top end above 300kph maybe is missing a smidge on the straight to T11, but traction and acceleration up to 300kph seems identical and on the 2 straights to T17 and finish line it seems identical to me...

I still may be misinterpreting data I suppose. Anyway, good race, great drive, great car, RB-18 looks 0.2s ahead of F1-75 right now. Deserved win for Max. Have a nice week.
I wouldn't be surprised if say there was a loss in performance engineers said 10-20kw (probably hard to put an exact figure on it without a dyno) Christan has chosen the 20kw figure

But, in football I've seen sides that have been pretty comprehensively beaten but you look at any key indicators that **often*** point to a winning side the losing side has 'won a lot of them (or they make it look far closer than it really was). Yes, often that very same data is useful, sometimes just for what ever reason it isn't, and it doesn't show on the field.

At the end of the day, I think you have to say though Max and Charles were in a class of their own, Charles threw a lot of pressure at Max after the safety car and Max just absorbed it well, why I think some were critical of Charles in the last race, yes big lead in the championship, but its been rare to see that kinda mistake from Max in the last few years really. It was a lot like Lewis at his best minimizes mistakes seems to be able to switch gears when needed, but its going to be a good battle between the two of them

dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Watto wrote:
09 May 2022, 04:00
At the end of the day, I think you have to say though Max and Charles were in a class of their own, Charles threw a lot of pressure at Max after the safety car and Max just absorbed it well, why I think some were critical of Charles in the last race, yes big lead in the championship, but its been rare to see that kinda mistake from Max in the last few years really. It was a lot like Lewis at his best minimizes mistakes seems to be able to switch gears when needed, but its going to be a good battle between the two of them
Yeah I agree, Max is really good. Charles and Max were racing their own race really, but I think with young Hards Max was managing and at the restart of SC he had to warm them up (kind of like Ferrari in Jeddah), otherwise he would have taken off a bit earlier. Max managed very well, really well done to him. Charles lost 6 points due to that mistake, hopefully they won't matter much. On to the next in Barcelona.

Spoutnik
Spoutnik
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Jaisonas
Jaisonas
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Joined: 05 Oct 2018, 23:30

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dialtone wrote:
09 May 2022, 01:44
That's not true... How many laps do you want me to pull? Here's every single lap after SC restart:
47: https://i.imgur.com/dLhhiPX.jpeg (equal SAI, +3kph on VER)
48: https://i.imgur.com/Wm1jTWF.jpeg (+8 on SAI, +6 on VER)
49: https://i.imgur.com/l9QGoEf.jpeg (DRS from here, +20 SAI, +23 VER)
50: https://i.imgur.com/KXh8wZg.jpeg (+30 SAI, +23 VER)
51: https://i.imgur.com/2NaZrpQ.jpeg (+32 SAI, +27 VER)
52: https://i.imgur.com/3u8ESP2.jpeg (failed pass attempt, -4 SAI, -2 VER)
53: https://i.imgur.com/JHl4l4h.jpeg (no DRS from here, +6 SAI, +3 VER)
54: https://i.imgur.com/87UssFs.jpeg (+5 SAI, +1 VER)
55: https://i.imgur.com/eR6Grmm.jpeg (+4 SAI, +4 VER)
56: https://i.imgur.com/b5fpiqK.jpeg (+2 SAI, +3 VER)
57: https://i.imgur.com/StG4cAS.jpeg (+1 SAI, 0 VER)

How is this an engine with hp deficit? smh...
Lol, Leclerc was barely catching Verstappen with drs who was alone in front without a slipstream and in your graphs Perez barelly had +10km on the straights behind Sainz with drs and slipstream. How can you not read your own graphs :lol:

dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Jaisonas wrote:
09 May 2022, 09:25
dialtone wrote:
09 May 2022, 01:44
That's not true... How many laps do you want me to pull? Here's every single lap after SC restart:
47: https://i.imgur.com/dLhhiPX.jpeg (equal SAI, +3kph on VER)
48: https://i.imgur.com/Wm1jTWF.jpeg (+8 on SAI, +6 on VER)
49: https://i.imgur.com/l9QGoEf.jpeg (DRS from here, +20 SAI, +23 VER)
50: https://i.imgur.com/KXh8wZg.jpeg (+30 SAI, +23 VER)
51: https://i.imgur.com/2NaZrpQ.jpeg (+32 SAI, +27 VER)
52: https://i.imgur.com/3u8ESP2.jpeg (failed pass attempt, -4 SAI, -2 VER)
53: https://i.imgur.com/JHl4l4h.jpeg (no DRS from here, +6 SAI, +3 VER)
54: https://i.imgur.com/87UssFs.jpeg (+5 SAI, +1 VER)
55: https://i.imgur.com/eR6Grmm.jpeg (+4 SAI, +4 VER)
56: https://i.imgur.com/b5fpiqK.jpeg (+2 SAI, +3 VER)
57: https://i.imgur.com/StG4cAS.jpeg (+1 SAI, 0 VER)

How is this an engine with hp deficit? smh...
Lol, Leclerc was barely catching Verstappen with drs who was alone in front without a slipstream and in your graphs Perez barelly had +10km on the straights behind Sainz with drs and slipstream. How can you not read your own graphs :lol:
Gonna be my last comment on this... With DRS Perez had up to 20, 30, 32kmh advantage on SAI in the 3 laps he had it. Leclerc had up to 20kmh advantage over VER on lap 50 (one random lap I took out of the ones after safety car). Without good traction out the slow corners there's no way they could pass, just like VER couldn't pass in the 2nd straight in Bahrain.

And with this I really don't care enough about this. cheers

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Wouter
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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In the Miami way to the podium! :D



Image

The Power of Dreams!

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Wouter
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
09 May 2022, 01:12
JordanMugen wrote:
09 May 2022, 00:57
dialtone wrote:
09 May 2022, 00:54
No way :).

Lap 54, PER v VER:
https://i.imgur.com/QlpY3OL.jpeg

No way he was 25bhp under VER with those speeds.
Thanks! =D>
Dont listen to him just because he throws out some hard to read cherry picked graphs. That one trace doesn't prove anything. Instead looking at actual time deltas it was very obvious perez was lacking power as he was losing time to sainz on every straight even with very close slipstream, while it was the opposite before that sensor had failed. Also with better tyres at the end red bull should fly past any ferrari as we've seen god knows how many times this season, instead he could barely keep up.
Well said @Juzh, every word of it! 👍. I feel sorry for Checo. He deserved that 3th place.
The Power of Dreams!

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Wouter
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dialtone wrote:
09 May 2022, 00:54
Swed3120 wrote:
08 May 2022, 23:28
dialtone wrote:
08 May 2022, 23:17
Or simply overheating and when it cooled off it went back to normal.
.
According to the race broadcast he lost around 25bhp due to a battery pack sensor failure
.
No way :).

Lap 54, PER v VER:
https://i.imgur.com/QlpY3OL.jpeg

No way he was 25bhp under VER with those speeds.
.
It is for me also hard to read your cherry picked graphs. That one trace doesn't prove anything.
Normally with fresh Medium tires Perez would be much quicker than Sainz on his old Hards, but he wasn't!

https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2022/gp/s8993 ... s/785-825/

simply overheating and when it cooled off it went back to normal.
Yeah man, I think Horner is making it all up.
Yeh, sure. You are right. #-o

This is so wrong! completely BS.
The Power of Dreams!

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TNTHead
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Location: The Netherlands

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Swed3120 wrote:
08 May 2022, 23:28
dialtone wrote:
08 May 2022, 23:17
TNTHead wrote:
08 May 2022, 23:16


Seems he suffered from some power loss, otherwise you would expect more from him with fresh mediums vs. old hards on Sainz car.

On the onboard they told him to switch to some emergency setting, so could very well be some sensor issue.
Or simply overheating and when it cooled off it went back to normal.
According to the race broadcast he lost around 25bhp due to a battery pack sensor failure
AMuS is reporting that is was a cilinder sensor leading to a deficit op about 20 kW:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... se-rennen/

'Nur die Zuverlässigkeit bereitet Red Bull Kopfschmerzen. Perez verpasste ein Podest, weil nach einem Drittel ein Sensor an einem Zylinder aussetze. Das kostete ihn laut Horner etwa 20 Kilowatt (27 PS) an Leistung.'

Translated:
"Only the reliability gives Red Bull a headache. Perez missed a podium because a sensor on a cylinder failed after a third of the race. According to Horner, that cost him about 20 kilowatts (27 hp) of power."

For what it's worth, source is in this case still Horner.

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etusch
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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That Perez is very unlucky ( not even close to sainz but still unlucky) He can be at podium maybe at second place

Curbstone
Curbstone
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
09 May 2022, 10:20
dialtone wrote:
09 May 2022, 00:54
Swed3120 wrote:
08 May 2022, 23:28

.
According to the race broadcast he lost around 25bhp due to a battery pack sensor failure
.
No way :).

Lap 54, PER v VER:
https://i.imgur.com/QlpY3OL.jpeg

No way he was 25bhp under VER with those speeds.
.
It is for me also hard to read your cherry picked graphs. That one trace doesn't prove anything.
Normally with fresh Medium tires Perez would be much quicker than Sainz on his old Hards, but he wasn't!

https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2022/gp/s8993 ... s/785-825/

simply overheating and when it cooled off it went back to normal.
Yeah man, I think Horner is making it all up.
Yeh, sure. You are right. #-o

This is so wrong! completely BS.
Oh please, he has provided several graphs, so there's no way he is cherry picking. He even provided a comparison between lap 11 and 54 (similar condition, less fuel load). He has put in a lot more effort in his analysis than just looking at sector times.
The statement 'Normally with fresh Medium tires Perez would be much quicker than Sainz on his old Hards, but he wasn't! ' is rather simplistic.
Maybe you don't understand the graphs, and don't like his conclusion, but that doesn't mean it is all just BS.

Perez' speed seemed normal in all laps after the safety car, and I don't understand how anyone can get a 30 km/h overspeed with a 30hp powerdeficit. It all just looks a bit strange to me.